Healing the Wound: Treating Religious Trauma through a Christian Counseling Lens (Part 2)

Camille McDaniel (00:06.164)
Welcome back to another episode. If you happen to be new, welcome. I’m glad that you found us here. And for everyone who has been here, it’s wonderful to have you back. We are going to be talking today about the second part. I told you how we had a part one and healing the wound, right? And

Now we are going to be talking about part two because part one was talking about religious trauma and part two we’re going to be talking today about when the wound comes from a spiritual leader. So we’re going to be talking about helping clients heal from betrayal by a spiritual authority. And this is again, this is a topic that some of you all are already working with and for some it might be something new.

Sometimes people will come in and their experiences with faith, with spiritual leaders, with the church, it just really hasn’t been good. And we want to be able to better understand it. We want to be very supportive. We know this world is humongous and people are having a variety of experiences every single day. So in this particular episode, we are going to be addressing some of the forms of

basically betrayal trauma that carries just some unique physiological, psychological, emotional, and spiritual implications because it’s the harm that happens when the person that is in the position of spiritual trust uses that position of trust to abuse, to control, or to exploit somebody.

So we’re going to kind of dive into that. Just knowing that as we’re talking today and in many cases, sometimes it’s not just a spiritual leader. So we’re gonna kind of cover also, what if it also happens to be a family member who is in this position of spiritual authority and that can also magnify the betrayal.

Camille McDaniel (02:25.184)
Let’s kind of jump right on into today’s episode and hopefully it equips you and you may even have some information that you would like to share along the way in the comments and give some ideas of how you also work with this population if this is a main population for you. And if not, you can prayerfully glean some information today so that if you happen to have somebody come to seek counseling support.

you will have an idea, a foundation of where to start. Okay, so with that, we’ll dive right on in here. All right, so as I was talking about, know, spiritual betrayal, it can really be magnified, depending on who it is that it’s coming from. This can just rupture the client’s ability to trust God, to trust the church, to trust themselves.

And so by the end of our time together for this podcast episode, we are going to ideally be able to go over defining betrayal trauma in the context of spiritual authority and just recognize the clinical and spiritual symptoms. We are going to explain the compounded impact when the perpetrator is also a parent or a close relative. We’re going to talk about

code of ethics and ethical principles that we need to make sure to work within while we are working with clients dealing with these challenges. And then using practical clinical strategies, we already talked about some strategies in our episode part one, where we talked about CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, and we also talked about narrative therapy. And we’ll just kind of review just a few more things.

It’s just practical strategies to help clients move forward in their healing. So let’s start right at the top with understanding what is betrayal trauma and in a spiritual context. And this definition came from Fried, Jennifer Fried, I believe from her studies and writings in 96 and betrayal trauma.

Camille McDaniel (04:51.124)
occurs when people or institutions on which a person depends for survival significantly violate the person’s trust. In a spiritual setting, this betrayal is magnified because of the perceived divine endorsement of the authority figure, right? So it makes it even that much more harmful because you believe that this person has been placed there by the Lord

in order to do whatever works they are doing and those those ideas of the works that they are to be doing do not involve coercion, abuse, control. Okay so another another study kind of noted and by the way I will have the references for

where I’m citing this information, I will definitely have that in the show notes that you can find on christinprivatepractice.com for this podcast episode, okay? Another study by Smith, Shannon House and Headley noted that betrayal by spiritual leaders often results in loss of spiritual identity, a distorted view of God.

hypervigilance in religious settings and a lot of self-blame and a lot of shame. Okay, so an example of this might be, let’s say you have a client and they sought counseling after discovering that their youth pastor who had mentored them in high school had been grooming them the entire time.

And they describe feeling like God chose the wrong people to lead, quote unquote, and questioned if God was trustworthy at all. So this is, again, this is showing you where individuals can start to be based on their experiences, experience a deep pain that even transfers into their understanding of who God is. And a lot of questioning that may come up.

Camille McDaniel (07:02.402)
Why? Because we believe that people have been divinely placed in their positions. So if they were divinely placed in this position, how could this have happened, right? Some common symptoms, again, adapted from some studies and work by Fried as well as Martin, Jennifer Fried. Some common symptoms might be intense anxiety when encountering religious symbols.

It could be intrusive thoughts that happen to be tied to sermons or scripture by the abuser. It can also be individuals experiencing this mismatch of how they’re feeling inside compared to what they’re seeing on the outside, know, questioning if God put this person in leadership, why did God allow this to happen? You know, some of those questions sometimes come up.

They may also experience social isolation, that did not want to come out. They may also experience social isolation from their faith communities or somatic distress. Again, we talked about that in part one. They may actually experience some physical symptoms when they are in religious spaces. So this can be really hard. know, again, this is really difficult when

you are betrayed, you are the individual who happens to be the person that this happened to or when you are holding space for clients who are sharing their life journey with you and you just hear how deeply this impacted them. You know the Bible actually even talks about in the book of Psalm chapter 55 verse 12 through 14, David was actually even expressing

this kind of emotional devastation when it comes at the hands of somebody that you cared about, that you trusted, that you may have even fellowshiped with. And in that verse it says, for it is not an enemy who reproaches me. Then I could bear it. Nor is it one who hates me, who has exalted himself against me. Then I could hide from him. But it was you, a man my equal.

Camille McDaniel (09:26.06)
my companion and my acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together and we walked to the house of God in the throne. So there, you know, he’s kind of expressing just this betrayal, my goodness. I could totally understand if it was an enemy of mine or somebody who hated me, who was maybe higher up than me. You know, at least if it was an enemy, I would totally understand it if it was.

know somebody who was over me that hated me I could at least hide from them but you, you were, I thought we were friends um know or I thought that um you cared about me because I cared about you and and we you know we were companions and so in here he is he is kind of um expressing this devastation and this can kind of mirror for um

for us as therapists, kind of an understanding of what many clients might feel, that sting of betrayal from somebody who was very close to them or somebody who was in the house of prayer, house of worship, God’s house, the Lord’s house. So as we talked about before, all of this betrayal can be compounded when the

the who has betrayed the client or the abuser is a parent or a close relative. So when the spiritual leader is a parent, the betrayal trauma is compounded. And this creates what Frye described as double bind, where the child depends on the parent for survival.

yet the parent is also the source of their harm. You know, that is something that I know, unfortunately, many people have experienced themselves. Some of them are counselors, licensed professionals in the mental health field today. Some are the people that we are treating. Sometimes, it might be someone in our circle that we know, whether relative or not, that we know.

Camille McDaniel (11:45.986)
has gone through this. It’s unfortunate because mistreatment of people, misuse of people, abuse of people is not something that is unfortunately rare. So many of us, even if we are not specifically seeing clients in our practice who are struggling with this, we actually may know people in our personal lives, or it could be you.

know who has experienced this and come on the other side of it.

Plant and Aldridge emphasize that familial spiritual abuse can do a few things. It can completely disrupt attachment security. That totally makes sense. It can absolutely upset how we attach to the world around us and to the people around us, kind of form our attachment style. It can lead to identity confusion.

in both the spiritual and our family roles and it can result in just ongoing difficulty, lifelong difficulty is what they say and mistrust of authority. So you know an example of that let’s say you have a client who shares that their father was a deacon in the church and regularly use scripture to justify verbal

and physical punishments and that client says I still can’t read the bible without hearing my father’s voice telling me that I was the fool quote unquote that was described in the book of proverbs. You know that’s like that’s an example I have somebody who they passed away before I ever got to meet them but would have been a grandparent.

Camille McDaniel (13:43.256)
who was the victim of such that we are talking about a double bind because the individual who was abusing them was their step parent and their step parent happened to be the pastor of a church. And so when they told of the abuse, the abuse that was ongoing, they were removed that the other parent left the home, you know, took

took the grandparent with them and for a brief moment, my grandparent would have been safe. But unfortunately, that parent returned back to that pastor and their marriage and that home and my grandparent had to go along and was not safe anymore for quite some time to come. So you can imagine how that shakes, how they feel about again, everything that’s been mentioned.

how they feel about themselves, how they might even feel about that other parent who is not able to protect them, how they feel about the other authority figure who’s abusing them. And then having to go to church and see that person on the pulpit preaching like everything’s all good, right? And getting accolades from other people. yeah, pastor, that was great.

great sermon and you know pastor you know we’d love to have you at the house and all the things that come along with that. You can see how that can create a lot of angst, a lot of turmoil within somebody who has to experience that pain. So these are some things that we want to keep in mind. Here’s some key considerations that we want to keep in mind. We want to know right off the bat, boundaries are automatically blurred.

because abuse occurs both in the home and in the church or the sanctuary. Sometimes the abuse, when we talk about the abuser being a parent or a close relative, sometimes the abuse might happen in the church.

Camille McDaniel (16:04.0)
And maybe outside of that person’s particular home might be, you know, another home. But the idea is the abuse might happen in multiple places, but it definitely causes confusion in the roles. So no matter whether the abuse is happening only in one place or not, you have the abuser being somebody in your church, but then also the abuser might be in your home or might be at the family functions.

You have to see this person on the holidays. You have to see this person when the family gets together for whatever birthdays or just because they haven’t seen each other and the confusion and the conflict and the turmoil that occurs because of that, because of those exposures. Some other considerations is that authority can be amplified, like as in disobedience.

is framed as being sinful, sinful against God and sinful against your parent because the Bible says you are to honor your mother and your father so that your days will be long upon the earth. but we’re going to get to the scripture that actually has something to say to the parents right because sometimes scripture in this way is then used in abusive ways. So it’s it’s yes the parent is abusing

their child but then also saying but you know this is this is not all bad because the Bible says you are to honor your father and your mother so your days will be long upon the earth. You know misuse of scripture. Another consideration to be thoughtful of is that shame then becomes multi-layered. The client might fear that speaking up dishonors both their family

and the the faith or the church. But you know the book of Ephesians in chapter six verse four has some correction has something to say about all of that and it says and you fathers do not provoke your children to wrath but bring them up in the training and the admonition of the Lord. So

Camille McDaniel (18:23.892)
If you are mistreating, misusing, abusing your children, you are putting them on a path that can lead to destruction and you are not to provoke them to go down the path of destruction with the way that you treat them. But instead you should be guiding and loving and protecting and teaching them

in training them in the ways of honoring the Lord. And how can you do that when your behavior and your speech is contradictory? Right? So the word of God has something to say. We can’t cherry pick and only use one part because we kind of try to use, you know, one part for these abusers. They try to use one part to control, to manipulate, to abuse without

without noting the part that’s directly speaking to them. Yeah. Let’s take a look at ethical considerations for us as mental health professionals, especially when we’re licensed because we are upheld to the code of ethics that we agreed to, the licensing laws for the state in which we are practicing in or the states in which we are practicing in. So.

one of the things we want to take a look at with these ethical considerations, for example, the ACA code of ethics says for personal values that we do have to be careful, right? And we know this, we’ve heard this a million times, but it, you know what, a million in one won’t hurt, right? We want to be careful and aware that as we are hearing such, such heavy, heavy stories, we want to avoid imposing

our values on our clients. We want to make sure, right, that the next thing, another code of ethics, so we want to make sure that we’re not imposing our values on our clients. We want to make sure that whatever values we are integrating, right, we have gotten, and this is another code, NBCC code of ethics, we want to make sure that we integrate any spiritual

Camille McDaniel (20:45.726)
any faith-based integration, we are doing so with our client’s consent. So we want to make sure the client has asked for it, we want to make sure the client is giving us permission to use it in the way that we are using it, we are going to make sure that we are checking in. This honors not only our code of ethics but this honors our clients. Why? Because first of all it’s just the right thing to do to make sure to

get people’s permission before doing something that involves them. But we also, there’s a therapeutic side because with misuse and mistreatment and abuse and coercion and control, there’s no permission asking. That person is subject to the behavior of the other individual. There’s not a lot of permission asking and if there is permission asking, it has been twisted in ways

that make the person feel as though they were they are wrong, they have sinned, they will be morally shunned in some way if they don’t go along with it. It causes them to be double minded and question themselves. So even if they are asked, they are not in a right position. It is not fair. The power differential is not fair for them to be really knowledgeable and honest about what they should be responding to in order to keep themselves safe.

The next thing that we want to do is we want to take a look at just some practices, just some ethical practices. And we want to make sure that in our care and treatment of our clients, we avoid what is called spiritual bypassing. So we don’t want to just skip right over the anger or the grief that they may express.

by then just offering up a word of scripture. Like that’s just going to kind of make it all right and they won’t have any feelings at all after that. We don’t want to do that right you know people may say things whether it’s scripture or whether it’s just something that you know you you’ve heard people just say it’s like well you know the spirit of the Lord is my strength and so he will be your strength as they are describing

Camille McDaniel (23:09.816)
how heavy this is feeling for them, how scared they were feeling or how angry they were feeling. We wanna really actually let them get it out, be able to hear what they have to say. What is their story? First, just let them get it out before rushing in to try to offer up faith-based statements to try to get them to better already, okay?

We also want to make sure that we are really clear about our role in our journey with them because we are not acting as their spiritual leader. We are not their spiritual guide or authority. We are a mental health professional that has been placed by the Lord giving gifts and talents to do what we are doing to care for the brokenhearted, to help individuals who are struggling in dark spaces. Yes.

The father has given us those gifts and talents, but we are, our role is their counselor, right? Their mental health professional. And as a mental health professional, we are integrating faith into their counseling experience at their request and with their permission. We also want to be culturally competent as it relates to understanding how faith

played a role in their experiences and what the different nuances are of their beliefs. So we want to just make sure that we’re getting the client’s full background as far as faith is concerned so that we just understand. We don’t want to just assume that we know when they use certain terms that like I remember a long time ago when I was asking about somebody’s faith base and if they had one and you know the role it played in their life.

they continued to use the word God. And this was one that I did not catch. I did not catch and assumed that when they said God, we were talking about the same God and we were not. So we wanna just make sure that we are very clear, that we’re very competent, that culturally there might be some nuances, some differences. We wanna make sure that we’re all operating on the same page. And then we also wanna make sure that we are clear that

Camille McDaniel (25:36.268)
We understand and we have it in our paperwork reasons why we would have to break confidentiality because mandatory reporting is still a thing, you know, right? And so if the abuse is still currently going on or if it involves a minor, then we have some legal obligations to kind of move forward. And that doesn’t matter whether we are integrating faith or not. Yeah, so we want to just make sure that we…

continue to stay clear and aware of that.

Let’s kind of move through and talk about some faith-based ways of reframing without minimizing the harm that was done to our clients. So when clients are ready, again, when they are ready, reframing can really help restore like a healthier image of God because a lot of times, even for individuals who again have not

left the faith, they are still very committed to the Lord and they are in the faith as believers in Christ, but they still have a lot of damage as far as their understanding of the Lord, their views, their trust, you know, just a lot of things there. So when the client is ready, let’s kind of look at some of the things that we may want to do with regards to the reframing. And so first,

some principles of reframing with faith integration is that one, we want to be able to work with our client to help differentiate God’s character from human misuse of authority. And sometimes when you have experienced things that are very traumatic, you can kind of clump everything together.

Camille McDaniel (27:34.496)
So God gets clumped right on into the same bag as the abuser and all the traumatic things that happen to you so that God’s and the association that you have with him are all combined together. And so we want to be able to help them differentiate God’s character from human decisions.

and misuse and control and coercion and abuse. The second thing is that we want to use scripture to affirm God’s like his justice, his compassion, his care for those who are wounded, for those who are brokenhearted. And I know this should go without saying so I’m just gonna say that so you all don’t side eye me or anything but this third one

It’s a large world out here. There are thousands of mental health professionals and sometimes things are said. There are accounts where clients have shared some things that have been said that were not therapeutic. So with that being said, we want to avoid implying that God wanted the abuse to occur or that God wanted them to be abused so that he could

use their pain to somehow further them in life or help other people because the Lord does not enjoy, condone the misuse, the abuse of other people so that he can then help them. Think of it like this, abuse.

misuse of people that causes great harm in darkness to enter into their world is just that darkness. And God, the Lord God Almighty never has to partner with darkness to accomplish his goals in the lives of your clients. He is God all by himself and major, majorly strong enough to accomplish whatever goals

Camille McDaniel (29:54.36)
he has for you, as the Bible says, he will continue a good work in you. And so he doesn’t need to partner with evil in order to accomplish what he has for you. Okay, he can do that all by himself. And so all you need to do is come into his love and his care. And so that’s another way to kind of look at it because sometimes people have unfortunately been told.

that, know, well, God wanted you to experience this so that you would be able to fill in the blank, whatever that is. So again, the Bible has, you know, something to share about this. And this might be something that kind of helps like clients to have a reframe of God.

and what he has set out to do in the lives of his children. So in the book of Isaiah chapter 61, verse one through three, it says, the spirit of the Lord is upon me because the Lord has anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor. He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, to comfort all who mourn, to console those who mourn in Zion, to give them

beauty for ashes. In this scripture it’s talking about the Messiah who is to come, Jesus Christ, and what he is to do in the lives of the people. And so an example reframe would be, you know, what happened to you broke God’s heart and his role was a never as the abuser. He identifies himself as the healer of the brokenhearted.

And there actually are some additional scriptures that talk to like, God counts every single one of your tears. He holds them like, know, in his hands. know, there are multiple other scriptures along the way that talk to how much the Father is there with the brokenhearted, you know, wanting to be a comfort, wanting to be a person who can heal you if you…

Camille McDaniel (32:17.802)
allow him into your life. Some practical trauma-informed strategies are what we’re going to kind of talk about next. So these are again just some some basic strategies that can be looked at. Obviously we are here together just but for a short period of time in this episode.

And so you get a platform that you can then springboard off of and do more research as you are going along to kind of look at, okay, how can I start to integrate this when I am working with my clients? How can I start to then maybe springboard off of this into additional trainings?

opportunities that you might have to maybe even specialize in this area. If you think that maybe this is something you want to niche, have as your niche, then by all means this, this along with part one gives you something to really consider as you move forward in your work as a healer, right? So some strategies like first of first and foremost,

Psychoeducation, when you are working with somebody who has dealt with traumatic experiences, psychoeducation can be extremely beneficial to the foundation of what you do with them as you move forward, because you can teach them about betrayal trauma and the dynamics of betrayal trauma. You can look up Jennifer Fried.

And just for those who are listening and those who may well I do hope that you do go and get the transcript of the show notes over at christinprivatepractice.com but just for those who are listening that is Jennifer Fried and it’s F-R-E-Y-D. So you know you can start to give them information of what it even means to

Camille McDaniel (34:35.31)
to have experienced betrayal trauma and the dynamics of that and then help them so that they can start to normalize the reactions that they may be having so they’re not like, am I just losing it? What’s wrong with me? It’s like, no, these are some things you can absolutely expect to experience. And then if they happen to have had that coercion or control, misuse or abuse,

come from a parent or from a close relative, then you can talk to that double bind that that Fried had mentioned. And so you can give them information about what that is, what it looks like, how it might play out in behavior, again, how it might play out in the way that they relate to people or their challenges with trust, all of that.

You can also give them psycho education on just how that looks when you’re talking about fight, flight, and some people even add fog because sometimes you get really scrambled so there’s a lot of information that can be given at the onset to just allow your client to understand what in the world is going on.

Why am I thinking this way? Why am I feeling this way? Why am I reacting this way? Why am I behaving this way? Why am I talking this way? That can be very comforting to people. So psychoeducation. We talked about CBT and so there were some things that we talked about in part one. In part two, additional things that you can consider are like thought records.

so that they can identify their beliefs like you know God chose them to hurt me and and replace it with truth so they can actually start to record when some of these thoughts pop up which then goes back to what we talked about in part one where they can identify the irrational belief and then they can be able to work with you.

Camille McDaniel (36:55.416)
to start reframing and replacing, like replace that belief with something that is true, and then also start to reframe their understanding of the Lord God Almighty. So like we said, God is near to the brokenhearted from the book of Psalm, and this is Psalm 34 and 18, how talks about God is near to the brokenhearted. So we can do a little bit of that tracking, thought tracking with those thought records. And then like we talked about,

In part one, there’s narrative therapy where we can help as they are sharing their story and moving forward, we can help with the rewriting of the story with God’s presence in the healing chapters, not in the abusive chapters. God is not associated with the abuse and the abusers, but he is in the parts of the story that are the healing, the restoration parts.

And then there is like somatic, you know, within the body, the somatic regulation, helping clients get more grounded, maybe reviewing some grounding exercises, whether that be where they need to use them as church, if they need to use them when they are reading their Bible or if they’re listening to certain songs that come up, worship songs, you know, wherever they are experiencing somatic.

dysregulation. We want to be able to just give some grounding techniques and exercises so that they can start to combat that when they are not in session with you. And I would give a give a couple of different ways because there are some clients who have had levels of trauma that were so prolonged that I’ve even had in my office that said like look just that like

that one, two, three breathing, that doesn’t do anything for me. But breathing actually, as we talked more and I got better understanding from them of the things that they had tried, I understood that just being told, because they had had counseling for some time in the past, individuals who are not new to that, they’re not new, they may say like, yeah, I’ve been told that, that doesn’t work for me.

Camille McDaniel (39:23.03)
know they may need something that is a bit more in depth. So again that’s where you can better explain the benefits of the slowed breathing or the deeper breathing and how to do it. So it just may, it may be that it needs to also be paired with some imagery as they are breathing. It may need to be paired with some some positive something positive that they say verbally whether it be a scripture

whether it be something like a positive thing that they are just saying, you know, I know that the Lord is here to heal me. I know that the Lord is here to protect me. I know that he did not want what happened to me to happen, you know, or if there’s something else that can be calming and grounding in that moment, again, use that, but giving them information. And then for some people where the deep breathing doesn’t work, I will say especially for sometimes some of the

chronic chronically ill clients sometimes depending on what type of things they are suffering with doing the very deep breathing regularly all the time for some people may not work and their body actually gives off some kind of negative reaction sometimes for that. So then you may want to look at what are some other ways that they can ground themselves.

There are a number of different grounding techniques and you can actually talk those over with your client and you can then practice them obviously in session. In addition to that, then the next one would be talking about just safe spiritual practices. Introducing prayer, like we talked about in part one, it doesn’t have to be out loud, they can pray to themselves.

but this is about starting to create safe experiences around things that should be sacred, but they were misused. So they were twisted. They were taken, they were twisted into something very dark, and now they have been tarnished. So we want for our clients to be able to reclaim what should have been healing, what should have been of God, what should have been goodness.

Camille McDaniel (41:43.702)
and start to help take that tarnish off that was placed by those dark deeds that they encountered in their life. So prayer or worship practices or reading scriptures, you know, in context, right? So.

not reading them in the ways that maybe if they were used against them, not reading scriptures in the way that then causes them to be re-triggered, re-traumatized but looking at them in their full context like we talked about earlier where some people

may have experienced as an example where certain things were were said to them or done to them and if it happened to come from a parent it was like you know well like the bible says you know you should honor your mother and father so your days you know are long upon the earth but now what we might do is we might help them to see that the Lord also spoke to them directly as the parent.

to say do not provoke your child to wrath, but instead, you know, guide and train your child up to admonish the Lord. So that then allows what was taken and twisted out of context to now be restored into its proper context. And so then you can maybe help your client as they are moving forward to try to restore their understanding and relationship even with.

reading the scriptures, right? know, so in all of this, we want to just know that this is unfortunately a thing that is frequently happening, that you definitely are called to counsel those, to help repair, help repair sometimes their hearts, their emotions.

Camille McDaniel (43:46.658)
We’re not here, you know, we’re not here to preach them a whole new theology. We’re not here to do that. But, you know, we are here to try to help them enough so that God, again, can be kind of like, you know, part of their story in ways that are healthy and healing. But in all of the things that we do for our clients, is with

their requests, it is with their permission, or as I said before, at their request and with their permission. So that is the second part, part two of what we are going to be talking about as it relates to religious trauma and as it relates to when the person who has caused the trauma happens to be a spiritual leader. Again,

take a look at the show notes for all the references to things that people I might have cited or any of their research and their work. And I will leave you with this scripture. But before I leave you with the scripture, also, I want to just thank you. Thank you for your participation, whether you’re participating in the Facebook group or whether you happen to.

write a comment under one of the episodes, whether it’s on YouTube or if it’s on Spotify, and for the emails because I have gotten a couple of emails and I just want to thank you for giving me feedback for your participation. It really is nice, you know, to actually see some of or get some of the feedback from people who are on the other side of this video. So I will leave you with this closing scripture.

And that is going to be from Psalm 34 and 18. You are doing good work. You are doing good work for a world that is in great need of what you have to offer. And I pray that you do not grow weary.

Camille McDaniel (46:04.8)
in well-doing and if you are weary, my prayer is that you will not be afraid to take time to restore yourself. And that fear sometimes comes from fear that if I take some time off, I won’t get paid, I won’t be able to, you know, take care of my financial responsibilities or if my clients, what if my clients can’t, you know, right now they are not in a position where I can take off or all of those things. I need you to really pray on that.

because you have to be well and you have to be in a right space so that you can continue to do the work that the Father has placed on you to do in this world during your time on this earth. So in all those things, again, I thank you for being with me during this episode and I look forward to coming back with another episode. I think the next episode is going to talk about some things that I have found out.

as a mom with kids who my youngest is kind of small, kind of young I should say he’s actually getting taller and taller by the minute but he kind of young and and I am very shocked and surprised at some of the things that I have found on YouTube Kids. Anyway that’s another episode so stay tuned. All right until we meet again, God bless.