Spiritual Warfare, Trauma, or Medically Related?

Camille McDaniel (00:01.426)
Welcome to Christ in Private Practice. It is wonderful to have you here for another episode. I want to take a moment real quick and ask you, are you on our Christ in Private Practice newsletter? Are you receiving newsletters right now because you’re on the list? If not, please head on over to Christ in Private Practice and at

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And I wanna make sure that you are on the list because that’s where I notify everyone first is on the newsletter. That’s the best way that I keep in touch with everyone. And so if you are not there, then you may be missing important opportunities for trainings or books that are going to be coming out or episodes, podcast episodes that you’re going to be able to use and be beneficial to you. please.

head on over to Christ in Private Practice, get on the newsletter list, share it with someone else so that you don’t miss a beat. All right, so in today’s episode, we’re gonna be talking about how you will know if what you’re seeing in the counseling space is spiritual warfare or whether it’s trauma.

or whether it has to do with something medical. And so as Christian clinicians, we know that God calls us to have discernment and to make sure that we are operating in relationship with Him and growing that relationship, nurturing that relationship so that our discernment gets stronger and stronger. Because we want to be able to walk in both.

Camille McDaniel (02:17.132)
the spiritual wisdom that he has for us if we want to accept it freely, right, as well as clinical integrity and knowledge and ethics and professionalism. So discernment, you know, it’s not always easy, which is why we have to definitely make sure we are sharpening our skills. Sometimes what looks like

spiritual warfare could actually be something that has biological roots. Sometimes it could be trauma and a trauma history. And we’re going to talk throughout this podcast today about, like I said, whether or not it is spiritual, whether it is psychological, whether it is biological, and then

I am going to go ahead and I’m gonna talk a little bit just about the fact that there are some aspects as well of things that we may see in the natural that have to do with a disconnect from the Lord. And so I will also talk about that, because I know, you I can already hear it. People are like, well, wait a minute though. There are several things that contribute to what we may see and it has directly to do.

with our relationship with the Lord. I know, I know, I’m gonna get to that, but just, but just hang in there with me while we kind of first go through the first parts of what we’re going to be talking about. So first of all, like I said, we want to always keep in our mind that discernment is a muscle that we definitely have to exercise and we strengthen discernment by using it by

praying by asking for wisdom, you know by operating and using that. So in our work, you know, it’s for us to really be attuned to the Holy Spirit while we are still staying grounded in, like we said, our ethics and evidence-based practices and you know collaborating also with other sources that we might need to use as far as adjunct

Camille McDaniel (04:27.648)
services for our clients like medical professionals, know, physicians that we might need to encourage our clients to go and see, or, you know, we might have a referral for a group or some other type of adjunct service. So we’re just kind of keeping in mind a holistic view when we are working with our clients. Sometimes as Christian counselors, we may notice that there’s kind of a pull for us to

kind of find everything to be just a spiritual root, like everything is just spiritual what we’re seeing. And while yes, the Bible absolutely does say that we are not fighting against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities in high spaces, we also see examples in the Bible where there were things that were just physical. It wasn’t a spiritual attack. Matter of fact, it may have been that it was like just physical. And we talked about this in another episode.

just physical so that the Lord can show up strong and show to the people his magnificent power and his glory. And so, you we wanna just make sure, again, that’s where discernment comes in, that we are clear on what we are actually seeing. And not just making sure that we, or not making sure, but not just having us go straight to looking at the spiritual while ignoring physical and mental.

If we, you if there’s anything, again, the Bible talks to this, right, in the Book of James, matter of fact, that if there’s anyone who is lacking wisdom to then go to God and ask for it. And so, you know, if there’s anything that we are needing and that we’re confused on, we want to absolutely study. We want to study, we want to pray, we want to be able to assess clinically. We want to be able to then make decisions. And I’m going to kind of talk about that a little bit later. So,

let’s jump right on in and start when with like when something is spiritual in nature and how can we start to kind of notice, you know, when it is spiritual and sometimes your clients, your clients might even ask you about that. I’ve had clients ask, you know, how do I know if this is spiritual versus if this is, you know, my mental health? So, you know, there are times when

Camille McDaniel (06:46.722)
what your client might be describing that they are experiencing. It doesn’t really fit nice and neatly into a diagnostic category. And that might include, like for example, they might experience great fear while they are praying, or they may even find themselves feeling great resistance and even some disdain when it comes time for them to read their Bible.

or when it comes time for them to even think about spending time with God in prayer. There have been times where I have been told in counseling sessions that people even started to feel an anger rise up in them when they just even saw a cross. Not necessarily in our room, but because actually when I am seeing clients here in the office,

I do actually have a cross for those who are watching me on YouTube. You actually can see it behind me. It’s kind of kind of blends in on my wall. It’s not like very, very, you know, vibrant, if you will, as far as color, but it is there. And there have been, you know, some who like in their personal life, I’ve not gotten anything.

in my actual practice so far, but in their personal life, even sometimes seeing a cross has brought up some angst, some anger, some irritation that they can feel within them. And so when you hear about maybe somebody who is struggling with even the sight of a cross or they are struggling and feeling great disdain and irritation, when it comes time to pray or read their scripture,

those may be indications. Individuals who are having reoccurring nightmares that might involve some type of spiritual theme along with it, sometimes even sleep paralysis where people are saying that while they are stuck in sleep, they can feel entities around them or they can even see or hear things that are very frightening to them, you know, these may all point

Camille McDaniel (09:10.126)
toward things that are of a spiritual nature. But again, as counselors, our goal, it’s not to necessarily just label it as a spiritual attack, but it is for us to make sure that we’re first discerning correctly and we are praying on it. Even if we are just inwardly praying within the moment for the Holy Spirit to give us wisdom on what it is that we might be seeing.

And when we notice that it seems as though it might be going along a line of spiritual warfare, just making sure that we are always asking, clarifying questions so that we can make sure that we are seeing a full picture of what our client is experiencing, making sure that we know what was going on before that, what’s going on, what went on after that, what are some different.

different things that might be going on in their life so that we can just ensure that yes, this does sound like it may be spiritual in nature. And that’s also, you know, again, where our discernment comes in to have the wisdom to know what’s going on and what questions we need to ask. And just clarifying questions are things that we know all about because we have been doing that all our days.

as mental health professionals. And so we can just kind of explore and see what patterns might be coming up. so, know, asking ourselves, is this client under spiritual attack or is this client experiencing a lot of emotional overwhelm that is coming out looking like an attack, right? But again, some things are very clear. So, you know, experiencing

a lot of anger even maybe looking at a cross could be spiritual in nature. Prayer and reading scriptures and finding yourself really upset that not necessarily you like the client, right? You also want to make sure that for the client there is no trauma around things of a spiritual nature because it could be then

Camille McDaniel (11:27.616)
that some of the experiences that they have had in life are now being triggered when they are even thinking about church or thinking about prayer or thinking about you know or looking at a cross you know thinking about reading their Bible sometimes that can also be so it’s very important for us to first like rule out

other things but if other things have been ruled out and you’re still left with things that are like spiritual, you know, we’re talking about things that are happening and it’s like I’m ruling everything else out, it’s like this is really looking like this may be spiritual in nature. So the difference can be subtle but definitely if we can identify it can be very significant to how we move forward in order to

assist our clients, especially like, you know, making sure that our client has come and they are looking for help that is going to be integrative of their faith. Yeah. I don’t necessarily, you know, if I sense that there is something of a spiritual nature going on, you know, I

take, I don’t necessarily take a role again, we’ve talked about this in other sessions, I don’t take the role of like their pastor, their spiritual leader. Obviously I stay within my scope of practice. I do know there are some who are trained in deliverance. I would say if you are listening and you are trained as it relates to deliverance ministries, you have to be very clear, especially if you are licensed by your state.

that you distinguish exactly what that means, that you have paperwork that is clear on the process and the procedure and the steps of what that looks like, and that you are not doing those dual roles of counselor and deliverance minister all at the same time, but you are being very clear on which role you are actually kind of walking in.

Camille McDaniel (13:43.694)
while you are working with your client. For me, that’s not an area where I am, excuse me, trained and so I’m not going down the path of anything deliverance related, again, not going toward the role of pastor or spiritual leader, but I will ask clients to actually take time and pray on or invite the Holy Spirit in.

to give wisdom and clarity in this area, especially if it’s something like, again, it’s very subtle and we’re like, you know, this could really be spiritual. It seems as though we have ruled out other areas. It’s not medical, it’s not trauma. So then we can go back and say, you know, I would invite you to maybe consider having the Holy Spirit come in and give you clarity and wisdom. And I would…

I would ask that you pray on answers regarding the root of this, you know, this attack, this disturbance that you happen to be experiencing. And then let’s talk about what’s coming up for you, that the messages you have received after your prayer time. And in the meantime, you know, I’d ask that you pray.

over this area. know repentance and prayer is very important in in the Christian faith and so there are even scriptures that support you know repentance and then prayer. Matter of fact and I wish that I had been a little bit more ready for this one because I did not even think about like the repentance and prayer.

But actually I was able to pull it up. Thankfully I had this because I just actually shared this this week. as it relates to repentance and prayer, like in the book of Acts chapter three, verse 19, it says, repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. In first John.

Camille McDaniel (16:02.2)
Chapter one, verse nine, it says, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And then, you know, there are actually a couple of other scriptures, but those are the two main ones. I had another one from the book of Luke, but excuse me, but the first two that I mentioned, you know, just go to the importance of,

If you’re going to encourage prayer, encourage repentance so that we come to the Father with a clear heart, you know, and a right spirit. So that’s something to look at when we’re talking about a situation that has a spiritual root. know, I might, in addition to the prayer and repentance, I may also ask

clients to connect with their pastor or their spiritual mentors if they have one, if they have one. And obviously all of this that we are talking about now is for clients who are coming and want their faith as Christians to be integrated into their experience and they have approved having the experience to include

homework of prayer and talk of the Holy Spirit, right? So the next thing that we want to cover that I want to also kind of talk to you about is trauma. And so when is it possibly trauma instead of being spiritual, right? And so trauma sometimes can mimic many things that we might even think of as being a spiritual attack.

Sometimes people may describe a heaviness that is on them, that just weighs on them like a very dark cloud, like they can’t you know move forward or they literally are drained of energy and you recognize that it’s not medical because that has been ruled out, there’s no medical mimics going on and you’re like you know this kind of could seem like it’s oppression, spiritual attack that’s weighing on them.

Camille McDaniel (18:27.522)
but you know what it also can be for some clients? It can be trauma that they have endured over different stages of their life that they have not been able to release and let go and it physically rests within them. I have had experiences where in helping clients to release certain patterns of trauma or patterns that have resulted,

from past traumatic experiences, just kind of breaking some of those patterns, those ways of thinking, the narratives and different things like that and breaking that down and allowing clients to recognize the safety that they now have around them.

the conditions that have changed around them, that they are able to release certain things that they did not feel comfortable releasing and essentially were literally carrying like an invisible 50 pound backpack on their shoulders and as they felt comfortable to release that, they literally started to feel lighter. They could really express that it felt as though

they were being weighed down and now that weight has shifted and lifted and they can feel different internally and that came from sometimes traumatic things that caused them not to be able to release heavy emotion. You know, there are some other things that sometimes trauma can do that can kind of cause us to think, hmm, is this spiritual? You know, sometimes people may have flashbacks and

Sometimes flashbacks, depending on how they are described, can look like someone’s talking about having a vision, you know, or sometimes like, you know, heaviness and feelings that they are carrying that are weighing them down, that are really like anxiety and stress. It can look like they are being spiritually oppressed, right? And even for some people,

Camille McDaniel (20:38.72)
there may be some other symptoms that they give off with regards to depression or anxiety related to traumas that they have experienced in their life that can also just look like spiritual takeover. So as clinicians, we just want to make sure that we are clear that sometimes what clients might even describe as maybe demonic oppression, spiritual warfare.

might actually be their body’s alarm system just reactivating after past pains have been kind of poked and and awakened. Things that were not healed coming forward and so you know just knowing God will meet them where they’re at he meets us there too and he can heal both the spirit and even the nervous system.

that he himself designed, right? So we just want to be though clear as to what is showing up. The Bible says that the Lord heals the brokenhearted and he binds up their wounds. That’s in Psalm 147 chapter and the third verse and so that’s both spiritual and physiological in process.

And part of, again, discernment is being able to explore those, the trauma history and the trauma triggers and the patterns that are resulting from that trauma. And it’s not about not, you know, having a belief that the spirit realm is present and trying to do some things, but it’s just understanding that even even if it happens to be

related to a trauma history that they’re experiencing, that all of that can be healed. And we have the Lord and we have the techniques that we have learned and trained in, and the Father has given us gifts and talents, and all will be used in order to serve his people. The next thing that we want to take a look at is when is it medical?

Camille McDaniel (23:04.142)
and I know we did a an episode on medical mimics and if you did not catch that episode, I encourage you to take a look because it’s super important to our practice as mental health professionals and to mental health professionals who do agree that the Lord created mind, body and spirit and we need to pay attention to all of it, right? So

If it happens to be medical, you know, then we are just taking a look at the fact that there are moments when symptoms, the symptoms, they just don’t seem to fit trauma and they don’t seem to fit a spiritual category either. Clients might feel anxious, for example, restless, you know, but here’s the thing. They might be drinking like five energy drinks a day.

they might be drinking large amounts of caffeine through the coffee that they drink because you you ask how many cups and they’re like I only drink like maybe two, two and a half cups of coffee a day but the cups are gigantic, right? You know or maybe they’re going through you know the line to to somebody’s

store to pick up a coffee on the way to work and the coffee has all kinds of sugar and and all these different things in addition to all the caffeine. So you know sometimes there might be something else going on you know that then looks like again it can look like maybe spiritual it can look like maybe psychological but it is

more of a medical because it’s like it’s physiological. Like you cannot ingest that much caffeine and think that your body may not react with things that look like anxiety or look like restlessness. You you might have somebody who experiences depression, but you know, when you go to say, let’s just rule out.

Camille McDaniel (25:20.334)
Because when’s the last time you’ve gotten your levels checked with your medical professional just to make sure there’s nothing present, no deficiencies, no abnormalities in hormone levels. And they’re like, man, it’s been a long time. Or I don’t really like going to see the doctor. And it’s like, okay, well, I would ask that you go and get an appointment so that we can at least rule this out and we know clearly.

that it happens to be just psychological. But then you get their lab results come in, they share with you that guess what? They had low iron or their thyroid is imbalanced and operating too slow. So this is just a reminder that again, we have a body component and that body component is going to also sometimes kick up some symptoms.

And we want to just make sure that we are clear and rule things out before we frame it as a spiritual attack or before we frame it as only psychological. We want to make sure that we are also asking the medical questions and encouraging our clients to get their regular checkups and finding out if there’s anything that is getting in the way that’s acting as a barrier.

to our clients getting those medical reviews and checkups so that we might be able to rule out physical issues. And again, you know, this is where discernment circles back because sometimes those medical issues can arise because of maybe just lack of order in the way that we are stewarding our bodies.

And so then that might even bring up another conversation to just kind of process as you are helping your clients achieve overall wellness. Talking about that, let’s go, like I said, I said we would come back to it because I understand there are also consequences in the spirit realm, there are consequences.

Camille McDaniel (27:42.394)
of just having a disconnection from God’s order. So, you know, here’s, let’s just go deep for a little bit. Let’s just go a little bit deeper real quick, right? So many of the struggles that we do see, spiritual, emotional, physical, they are connected to what happens as well when we drift away from God’s order. So there is that component too. And the Bible does warn

against a number of things not to shame us but to protect us. So for example, for example, the Bible speaks against gluttony, right? And again, when it talks about gluttony, it’s just warning you. Why? Because the Lord and his infinite wisdom knows where that road can lead to.

right? So let’s say if we’re talking about gluttony as it relates to like food, overeating, neglecting our our bodies, chronic stress, all of these are a form of lack of order. And so when we actually push beyond God’s design, whether we are not

not nourishing our bodies well, whether we are working ourselves to the bone overworking, whether we have poor boundaries, you know, neglecting the care of ourself, then eventually our body is going to start malfunctioning. It’s going to start sending us signals, crying out, screaming out.

because we have not done what is right and in order to care for ourselves. And that then brings about problems. There’s, you know, due to lack of obedience with regards to our health. So sometimes, yeah, sometimes, you know, we’re using discernment to ask like, hey, is it a…

Camille McDaniel (30:06.648)
like Lord, is it a biological issue? Is this unresolved trauma? Is this a result of living outside of God’s healthy boundary, physically, emotionally, and or spiritually? That can help us to also determine things that might be going on. You know, here’s something else that sometimes can…

can be like again we talked about is it spiritual, is it medical, is it physical or excuse me is it psychological and another example could be like constant anxiety and stress. It might not be trauma, it might not be a medical issue like a thyroid imbalance or something else, it might not be you know too much caffeine, it could be pride.

gosh, Camille, what are you talking about? Right? Okay, let me tell you though, have you experienced or have you seen in your counseling sessions where someone believes or you believe that you have to hold everything together? That if you don’t find the solution, a solution’s not going to come up. That if you don’t make it work, that if you don’t fix it, that if you don’t have the blueprint,

or have the plan, then how will it ever come together? How will I ever get to this place? How will my children ever get to this place? How will my family ever get to this place? How am I gonna get to this place on my job? I, I, I, I, I. Okay, right? And so believing that we are the only solution instead of surrendering control to the one who actually has all the solutions.

who gives you the wisdom to have solutions, can sometimes be at the root. So, you know, sometimes this is about, again, lack of order. We are humans. We have limitations. We can’t possibly hold all the answers and all the solutions and all the blueprints and do all the things, right? So when we see that come up,

Camille McDaniel (32:26.274)
we can easily see why there’s a great amount of stress and anxiety that we or our clients are experiencing in our lives as we have made ourself the center, the whole architect and an executor of all things pertaining to areas like family and our success in the future and job stability and all these kinds of things. And it is more than

a human can handle all by themselves. another example, another example could be like, for example, physical fatigue. So this is still, we’re still talking about how sometimes a lack of disconnect and disorder with regards to the Lord might also cause problems. So like physical fatigue might not only be just a medical issue, physical fatigue may not be low iron.

you know, physical fatigue could also kind of reflect, and this is why you’re gonna ask more questions, ask more questions, ask more questions. But it could reflect lack of obedience when it comes to God’s command for us to rest and to have a time for rest, right? Again, this doesn’t mean that…

you know, we’re shaming anybody. You know, if I, if I’m talking, you know, about something you’re experiencing personally, it’s obviously not for shame. This is all for us to gain wisdom and clarity and move forward empowered. And if we’re talking about things that you notice clients are dealing with, again, it’s not for shame. It means that we are trying to help them to regain alignment.

and and regain alignment in their life and regain alignment in their relationship with the Lord who they serve. So in practice like if we happen to be meeting with them we might say something like hey let’s let’s take a look at you know how God’s rhythm for rest or nourishment and our ability to surrender our rest to Him and our nourishment to Him can bring

Camille McDaniel (34:43.84)
healing to our lives. So as you notice like you know this there’s a number of things for us to think about but all can be super beneficial to us helping our clients and so just some practical tools some practical things that you can use when you happen to be in the session. The first thing is we want to look at like a three three column reflection system.

So the first thing we’re gonna do is when we notice, notice some complex symptoms that are coming up, we’re just going to jot it down and see if it possibly fits in the spiritual, the psychological, or the medical category. And the spiritual is going to include what we first talked about, but also it’s going to include alignment with the Lord and…

his design for our lives that’s described in the Bible. We are going to, number two, we’re gonna pray for clarity first. We’re gonna invite the Holy Spirit into our setting, into our mind, our body, make sure that we are equipped before we even start the session. We’re going to pray, we’re going to then assess and ask for clarity, like ask those clarifying questions.

And then we are going to make a determination. So sometimes it might be that we are going to refer our client to speak to their physician, their medical doctor to get additional support and evaluation. Sometimes it might be that there’s another adjunct service. Maybe it’s a group, maybe it’s some other thing that is going to help support the work that you all are doing. So you’re going to pray, you’re going to assess and ask clarifying questions.

and you’re going to make some recommendations or refer additional adjunct services if necessary. And then the third thing we’re going to do is we’re going to just make sure that we are always staying aware and on top of building connections. We want to build connections with other mental health professionals, other physicians. We want to try and…

Camille McDaniel (37:01.75)
learn more about what’s available in our community. If we happen to be a mental health professional that offers counseling multiple states, then that means we’re just going to widen the net of the people that we connect with and find other individuals who integrate faith, Christian faith into their practices, and just see if we can’t make sure that we have a good flowing referral network so that we can find and help find help for the clients that we are working with. And so, yeah.

This is how we are going to go about as mental health professionals who have Christian faith integration in our practice. This is how we are going to kind of meet the goal of looking at is this spiritual, is this psychological, is this medical? And sometimes you might notice that there are multiple aspects going on at the same time. But hopefully this has given you a lot to think about and maybe you even have things that you will add to this.

based on your experience in the field. And that way we can continue to serve our clients holistically and professionally and ethically. So that we are just coming in alignment with our God-given gifts and talents as we are helping them to heal. I hope that this is giving you a lot to think about. As always, if you have any comments, any questions,

feel free to send a message to hello at christinprivapractice.com. Don’t forget to get on the newsletter. I want to see you on that newsletter so that when I send out information about things that are going on, you stay in the know. Please share this episode with others who you feel can benefit. We really want for Christ in Private Practice to be something that empowers and supports.

other mental health professionals who are wanting to stand firm in offering Christ integrated counseling supports for those clients who actually are looking for that very thing. And until the next episode, God bless and continue to do a wonderful and good work. Bye bye.