When A Therapy Session Goes Public: Ethics, Boundaries, and Faith

Camille McDaniel (00:28)
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Christ in Private

You also see a familiar face. I have with me today Diana Rice, who is a licensed mental health counselor and certified integrative mental health professional.

You may remember seeing her. She was at our summit, one of the presenters last year. And so I have her back

Camille McDaniel (00:56)
Hello, this is Camille from the future to interrupt very quickly to make a clarification. The podcast that I’m referencing in this episode is from episode 53, podcasting ethics in counseling. That’s when I reviewed some ethics associated with podcasting and I used as an example, a case that had been circulating on YouTube regarding a therapist and their client.

There had been some things that occurred on the therapist in and some things that occurred on the clients in. The therapist had showed up on a podcast and talked a little bit about some of those experiences and the former client showed up on their friends podcast who happened to be a pretty influential YouTube influencer with a pretty large following where they also shared events according to what they recalled.

so that they could be heard. It was a good podcast if you had not listened to it already and also something that just reminds us to be very careful about ethics, the potential for exploiting our clients and how we can move forward with professionalism. Well, today we are going to expand on episode 53 and now back to our podcast.

Camille McDaniel (02:19)
We are both coming somewhat with disturbed hearts, but we prayed, we asked the Father to cover us and we ask that he continue to do the same for whoever is hearing these words as we move forward.

With that, the story that we are going to be discussing today, it is reflecting one person’s lived experience as shared publicly online. Now, the details, every single detail has not been independently verified by Christ in private practice, although some details have been verified as we were able to see additional information and find ⁓ additional

Podcasts, videos that have been put out by the individual telling their story as proof. So this conversation that we are going to have today between Diana and myself is for educational and reflective purposes only and it doesn’t serve as a legal or clinical or supervisory advice. Now we will not be naming or identifying the therapist.

or the practice that is involved, our goal here is for learning, not labeling. It is to examine ethics, boundaries, and representation and how that all intersects in our field. So let’s approach this conversation as we move forward with humility, with compassion, and a heart to protect both clients and the credibility of Christian counseling.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (04:01)
Yes. Yeah.

Camille McDaniel (04:03)
It’s so good to talk to you again, Diana.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (04:06)
I know Camille, I love it. I mean, we’re both podcasters and I think this is why this situation hit because this is, you know, was two podcasts really, if you think about it being involved, right? And one podcast are licensed professionals and the other one was just a influencer. That’s how I took it. Right? ⁓

Camille McDaniel (04:20)
Yes.

Yep, I think you’re right,

absolutely.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (04:32)
Yeah, so listening to it and I listened to it a couple of times, both sides of everything and research because that’s what I do because that discernment is really, really important in our field and not to react in emotion but respond in wisdom.

Camille McDaniel (04:44)
Yes.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that we are going to be doing a lot of responding out of wisdom because this is something that can have a ripple effect on clients ⁓ for generations. And I know that may sound like an exaggeration, but as I was sharing before we actually started recording, I have experience with somebody who I was seeing or am seeing ⁓ who has gone through something similar and the

the effects are generational. So we definitely want to pick apart everything that happened so that we can be well informed, so that we can move forward with integrity. ⁓ And so that ideally we can stop any errors that might come up in our own practices or in the way that we counsel someone else who we might be supervising and just make sure that we are ⁓ right and in order.

With that, we’re going to, the way we’re going to be talking today between Diana and myself is kind of almost like a round table, but between two people. And so there are going to be some questions that are then put out there. And then Diana and I am going to have some conversation around those. And in the midst of all of that, we will be keeping in mind ethics and boundaries and culture and.

And a lot of things that we as mental health professionals and we as mental health professionals who integrate faith, our Christian faith into counseling need to definitely be aware of. So Diana, let’s just start with what was the most unsettling moment ⁓ or the most like glaring clinical red flag that you observed in this therapeutic interchange?

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (06:42)
Okay, so I think because I watched the patients or the clinic, the clients ⁓ video first, you know, I’m trying to understand and I think the glaring was when she was talking about, well, well, first it’s doing the EMDR.

Camille McDaniel (07:06)
There were a few, yeah, that, yeah.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (07:08)
There was a bunch, but the part where

she said, all of a sudden, I don’t know, I go on headway. And that’s the thing, people that are searching for therapy don’t know they’re in a crisis or they’re in pain and they want and need help. So they go to these, like Psychology Today, they go online.

Camille McDaniel (07:31)
They just go online.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (07:34)
And then they click what they want and need in their insurance or whatever it is. And then the first available shows up and I’m not victim blaming or anything like that, but it’s just to teach anyone that’s not a clinician that might be listening that you want to, even though you might be in pain, you want to do a little bit of homework. Right? So that’s like the beginning. Then it went to her going into ⁓

Camille McDaniel (07:56)
Right.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (08:03)
into therapy and EMDR was like taken right away. And then she was having nightmares and all these things were coming up. And sometimes people practice these different modalities without knowing that like the side effects, because they’re so, they believe into their modality so much. invested money and time and they seen it work for everybody else.

Camille McDaniel (08:23)
Yes, that’s true. And I will say this, I took EMDR training and I can remember that while in the training, someone did say that they had used the training more than more than one person actually said this, they had used the training and something about the training ⁓ or excuse me, something about the modality when they were using it with someone did invoke ⁓ severe reaction within the client that the

client was getting worse. That is not to say that EMDR is bad. We’re not here to talk about that. What we are here to say though is whatever modality is being used, there has to be strong training. There has to be ongoing consultation. You know, the EMDR training that I took was three days. The reason why I no longer have that listed under my name on my website is because

I felt that after that three days and it was long and it involved trials and it involved consultation and you were also in the position of the client as well as the therapist while doing it and there were books involved and all of that and I still felt I needed more. And they did have opportunities for you to sign up for more but everyone did not. And so I did notice myself that one, ⁓

when the client was looking for therapy, they said they did not have an evaluation, they kind of just jumped into therapy. And I don’t know if they, they, they did acknowledge, they didn’t know how this was supposed to work. So I don’t know if maybe there was some sort of assessment that didn’t feel like an assessment. I don’t know. But I do know that they mentioned, I think on maybe like the third session that they dove into EMDR.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (09:56)
Yep.

Yeah.

Yes.

Camille McDaniel (10:15)
And I

will say from the training I went through that there are several steps that you are supposed to take before even seeing if the person is a good candidate for it at all. So just because someone comes from EMDR, comes for it, does not mean that that’s what they’re going to get from you. You, as the therapist assess, it’s not a right fit and stabilization needs to occur before you move into that.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (10:25)
Yes. Yeah.

Right?

Yeah. So to me, was like informed consent, a full biopsychosocial intake. That’s what sounded like was missing, right? A trauma history. I wonder if the clinician said, hey, let’s do the ACE test, adverse to childhood experience test. I mean, we do know according to the client that there was severe childhood trauma, right? Okay.

Camille McDaniel (10:51)
Yes. ⁓

Yeah

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (11:08)
But still an ACE score, a baseline functioning, you know, these are all non-negotiable thing. I had EMDR. I come from CPTSD background. So when I had EMDR, I’m telling you, it was probably like the first four sessions was like deep, really getting to know me. And then…

Camille McDaniel (11:30)
Mm-hmm.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (11:30)
It was

the top 10 things. But this is the difference between someone being informed on their ⁓ modality. Because like I could say, I’m IFS informed. I am not certified. I know how to, but I make sure that my clients know exactly what I can do.

Camille McDaniel (11:43)
Yes.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And there is a difference and that’s the informed consent that we are to give our clients. It’s a part of our ethical codes. And if you look at all the ethical codes, so it doesn’t matter what your license is, all ethical codes speak to informed consent. And that includes the modality and treatment you will be using, how it can impact the client, what they can expect.

And if there are any types of warnings or letting them know that just because that’s what they desire, you will have to do certain things in order to determine whether this will be the best form of treatment for them. Yeah. So then let’s, as we, as we march along, let’s take a look at. Yeah, that was just the beginning.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (12:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I mean, that was just the beginning. Like I could go on from, right?

That was just the first few minutes of being introduced to this situation. And then, you know, and now that I’ve listened to both sides, get, and I hate to say sides, because honestly, it’s, it’s the client’s side really, because we’re being hired for a service and it isn’t to serve our ego. Okay. It isn’t to.

Camille McDaniel (13:03)
Right.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (13:05)
You know, self-disclosure should never serve the therapist’s need for connection or validation.

Camille McDaniel (13:11)
Absolutely, we have to be careful about that. And I want to say for anyone who’s listening, we’re not just saying that. So the information that we were able to review, again, this individual, the client actually recorded certain things. So you can see it. So we’re not just throwing out there, we’re not making assumptions. That was some of the information we were able to verify for ourselves. that.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (13:35)
Yes.

Camille McDaniel (13:38)
There are, and there are a number of things and we’re going to get to some of those as we go through some of these other questions for us to discuss. And the next question, ⁓ going to dual relationships and attachment. So, you know, we both watched ⁓ the video, we both listened to the podcast that was unedited, because I know a new one was put out there that was edited, but we both listened to the unedited version. ⁓ And we also saw the video that the client recorded of one of their sessions.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (14:08)
No,

I’m just thinking of the whole time the therapist is talking and talking and talking. And I’m like, this girl’s paying this therapist this money, right? It’s a service. Like, I’m like, you know, it’s a business mindset too, but with ethics and kindness and love of what we do. And then she’s like, here, look, watch. But that was, I think the relationship, remember, I think they had it for 18 months, correct?

Camille McDaniel (14:25)
So, yeah.

I believe so. Yeah, it was definitely over a year. ⁓ And so, and as Diana is saying, like, look here, watch, she’s referring to a portion of the ⁓ session where the therapist, ⁓ the client asked, you know, should we be talking about anything in particular right now? And I guess there was no place for the therapist to go in conversation.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (14:34)
Yeah. So I think it was 18 months.

Camille McDaniel (14:55)
If you ever find yourself stuck in a session where you are not sure where else to take it, you can always stop and at this point in time, do an assessment of what the client’s thoughts are. Ask the client what their thoughts are on the progress so far, on the treatment so far, on their thoughts right then and there. If you ever get stuck and don’t know where else to go, stop. Ask the client how they’re doing. How are they feeling about so far what has gone on?

with the changes that have been made in their life, you can take assessment at that time. Instead, what the therapist did, as there may not have been anything that they could think to talk about was they said, as Diana just said, look here, watch. And it was a video of their family members, two little children who were kind of, I think, playing or running or whatever they were doing. And it had nothing to do with the session at hand. ⁓ And so…

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (15:53)
I mean, and I also want to say, like, I get it. Like, I know that this therapist, you know, there are certain diagnoses that, you know, you have to, you know, like have a little more, you know, CPTSC or borderline or whatever the case is, like you’re trying to make connection. I get it. We’re dealing with human beings. We’re dealing with live lived experiences and we’re trying to have

rapport and connect, right? And oversharing sometimes like it, I’ve heard it like where it’s like, no, this therapist actually knows what I’m going through because she went through it too. And so, okay, fine. Like I get, I am, I’m going to be honest, like I’m guilty of sometimes, not all the time. Like I’ve learned lessons. We’ve learned lessons as clinicians as we grow, right? Just like our walk with the Lord is sanctification. You’re growing to be more like him.

Camille McDaniel (16:44)
Excellent.

Thanks.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (16:50)
Well, with me, it’s me growing to be a better therapist in order to serve people well. And so with this situation though, it was just like, I don’t know if the clinician knew what she was getting herself into, or is this a result of, ⁓ just because remember her background, she knew about this diagnosis big time, according to what I, right?

Camille McDaniel (16:57)
Yeah.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (17:18)
So sometimes I’ve seen this with medical professionals and stuff because you’re working with a certain situation. Say like a doctor, like an oncologist, it’s like you’re seeing the same thing over and over so you’re just now in that, okay, this is what I do in this situation. yes.

Camille McDaniel (17:34)
And yes, you can get a little bit of tunnel vision. So,

know, certain things can kind of catch you off guard then if you’re like, ⁓ this is how this usually presents. This is what usually happens where we’re going. Yes. Yes. You can also feel as though you’ve met with a client so much, you pretty much kind of know them. And and so this is kind of a little bit of ⁓ a wake up call.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (17:42)
Mm-hmm.

Right. This is how I usually work and it’s worked for all these years.

Camille McDaniel (18:03)
to say you don’t ever know what twists and turns might take place in the therapy session. And when you want to share, because like you’re absolutely right, we’re not robots. know, rapport is built in different ways depending on geographic location and culture and all different things, know, gender. There’s a lot that goes into how we build rapport with our clients. ⁓ A great rule of thumb, a great way to stay ethical is if you can then

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (18:03)
Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel (18:32)
help yourself to be able to explain or know that if called into question, you can explain why you shared what you shared and you can tie it into how it is therapeutically beneficial. So absolutely, I mean, I’ve shared, I’ve shared ⁓ in a way to help like you just said, to help the client know that I have walked that path, I have worked.

through those experiences. ⁓ so I have some valuable information in addition to clinical training that can be beneficial to what you’re talking about right now. ⁓ So it’s not.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (19:03)
Right, yeah.

And to think of it like spiritually speaking, right? The fruit of self-disclosure, you gotta really think about it. The fruit of self-disclosure should always lead to the client’s growth, not our relief.

Camille McDaniel (19:09)
Mm-hmm.

That’s awesome. Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (19:21)
not our relief. And

that’s the situation. Like sometimes I realized, because I worked in alternative high schools for most of my career. Like, and some of these teens have gone to therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, they were in and out of DJJ, Department of Juvenile Justice, ⁓ or things like that. And so like to me, a little of my self-disclosure had a purpose in order for them to say, wait, what? You came from that neighborhood?

Camille McDaniel (19:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes but it had like you said but it had a purpose and it wasn’t self-serving so it wasn’t about allowing yourself to get relief and yourself to be exalted but it was for the benefit of the client. Yeah.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (19:51)
Yes. Yes.

It

makes me think of Proverbs 18, 2, right, where it says, fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.

So it’s like understanding, know, especially us Christian clinicians, like this is where the word of God comes in. This is where before or in between your because some of us are seeing 25 to 35 clients a week, you know, we’re back to back and it’s just taking that time to take a breather and pray before you enter.

Camille McDaniel (20:25)
Yes.

Absolutely. So that you can be humbled, so that you can do the work he has set for you to do, so that you do it. You know what, you get some kind of glory, your clients are thanking you, and they really, then wonderful, that’s icing on the cake, but you’re not going into it doing it for any of that. You’re doing it for them to get healing, whether you get any recognition ever, or whether you get recognition. Yeah, absolutely. So then.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (20:42)
Mm.

That’s right.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so are we going to talk about like, I know we’re talking about like the client’s point of view, but I think what disturbed me the most, Camille, the whole thing was it’s not disturbing. It just made me sick. You know, it just hurt. It hurt my heart. It hurt my heart. It hurt my belly.

Camille McDaniel (21:16)
It made me sad. I felt heavy. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (21:21)
I just felt it all over and I’m just like, and

I cried. I literally cried going, oh my goodness, because I was trying to understand. I get where the clinician too, like I can imagine how scary that is. I can just like, because especially if you don’t know the person and all of a sudden it just got out of hand. But the way it was presented and it wasn’t just that clinician, it was the host. When I was listening to some of the things that were edited,

Camille McDaniel (21:38)
Yes.

Yeah, that one was okay. Well, wait, hold on.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (21:52)
Okay, am

I going ahead of things? Because now I’m going from like sad to righteous anger and I’m just like, mmm.

Camille McDaniel (21:57)
Right?

So now here’s the thing, before we go to the host, here’s what I want to I want to check in on, because the client also talks about how the therapist had shared her own diagnosis and cried and disclosed personal family pains. And, you know, that then goes back to what we were just talking about, there is a way to share, we’re not robots. But you know, as you’re talking, it made me think of of this.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (22:11)
Yeah.

Camille McDaniel (22:26)
I wonder what that therapist was going through that was not really healed. Even though she had done her own work, she had done a lot of work, but there was a blind spot. And there obviously had been some pain tucked away somewhere. And so for us as therapists, we’re humans. We have a variety of lived experiences and they’re not all pleasant. They’re not all pleasant. And so it is in that.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (22:29)
Yes!

Yes.

Camille McDaniel (22:51)
like in in the fact that the client then alleged that the therapist, you know, told about her own diagnosis and cried within the session and, and, and the way it was presented, it wasn’t like, you know, you shed a tear because your client was going through something and you felt it was more like maybe there was some tears that was shed and it was coming from her own stuff, right. And so this is where we want to all be very aware of

what we have gone through as human beings and how it might be triggered by some of the individuals that we serve and never being afraid or ashamed to say there is a part that is not healed and therefore I don’t know if I’m the right fit to go in this area of challenge or of mental health struggle.

Sometimes we may know that like our healing allows us to then better help people who have gone through things that we have healed from, but we have to be careful that those things that we have gone through are not going to then just show up.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (24:02)
And if they do show up, doesn’t mean to just, you know, what I see is if that comes up into the surface, it’s for you to deal with it, right? So, you know, the clinician, I don’t know if that she went and got help for like, this is counter transference. This is where supervision or hiring your own therapist, because sometimes what I’ve seen as a supervisor or in the field is that because we’re the experts, we don’t need the help.

Camille McDaniel (24:11)
Yes. ⁓

Hmm, yes. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that doesn’t just plague mental health professionals, that plagues a lot of individuals who are well-trained, very knowledgeable and intelligent, and it makes it so that you can’t see your own areas of weakness. Because you’re like, no, I got this. I mean, I’ve studied, I’ve trained, I’ve been doing this for however long. So yeah, getting your own support, that’s never a negative. We need support.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (24:49)
Right.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Camille McDaniel (24:59)
⁓ So I wanted to kind of jump in there because I know that even though the client told their story and there’s also parts that would say, what would lead a mental health professional down this path? ⁓ And it could be a number of things, but also since they were aware and the self-disclosure was not balanced, that there may have been some pain points for that mental health professional as well that needed to be tended to. So then.

I know you’re okay. The podcast, the podcast ⁓ that really actually the podcast ⁓ was what I believe was the thing to shine a light on how the therapist felt and, and it also put the therapist in a position where you could easily believe that the therapist ⁓ adopted and believed the thoughts and feelings of the podcast hosts.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (25:57)
Hmm.

Camille McDaniel (25:57)
because

it’s the same way as you’re on Christ in Prime practice with me right now. And if I go off and say some really wonky things and you don’t say anything and you still let me go ahead and post the ⁓ episode, which Diana would not, can tell. Diana would be like, Camille, let’s talk. But it could be ⁓ easy.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (26:11)
Right.

Yeah, yeah. How am I see? See ya. No, was kidding.

Camille McDaniel (26:26)
easily misunderstood or understood that your therapist then aligns with this way of thinking. And so, you know, what were your thoughts in listening to that podcast? What started coming up for you?

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (26:41)
the unprofessionalism, how they were speaking, cursing, was just, you know, the immaturity, ⁓ just the ego. There was a little bit, and I’m not talking about the actual clinician of ⁓ the client because…

Camille McDaniel (26:50)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (27:05)
Honestly, I understand as a podcast host, a guest is coming onto your show, right? Because they’re either wanting to share their expertise or they’re selling something or whatever the case is, right? So understanding that this therapist A will call her went on Therapist B and C’s podcast and the therapist B and C, what they said, that to me, I was just like, oh my word, like how you’re in this field.

to help heal people. And when they describe certain diagnosis as, you know, the dreaded or whatever it was, that’s where that yes, can you imagine the person that has a diagnosis and listening to that? Like that’s where I cried. That’s, that’s where I got see.

Camille McDaniel (27:36)
Yes.

Yes, it was. I think Reddit or the one no one wants to work with.

Right. And that’s, and that’s absolutely.

See, yeah. You know why? Cause that one thing, that one sentence can make a person say, I knew therapists thought that. point going talking to them. They only kind of think this way about me, think that way about me. Because I know. Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (28:11)
Yeah, well, it’s a stereotype that you’re believing already or

you’re suffering and then now a therapist is making you suffer more? I’m like, what the flip?

Camille McDaniel (28:21)
Yes, it’s the same way as people may have been judged maybe for their skin, for their gender, for their anything. You thought these people over here, you know, really liked you, or you thought that they were your friends only to find out that they’ve been talking about you behind your back and laughing about you or whatever, you know, whatever things that they thought, which is so funny. That just actually brought up a memory from high school that happened a long time ago. And I remember being on a softball team and going to somebody’s

house the team went there before the game and overheard a joke that one of them were telling in a separate room that they didn’t know I overheard. And I remember thinking, interesting, I never thought you thought that way. So like that just as you’re talking and sharing and as we’re going through it, it reminds me of what it’s like to have someone that you thought or people that you thought were pretty cool with you, right? And only to find out that their thoughts about you weren’t that great.

Right? Obviously. And so I can see how that is very upsetting for anyone who hears it, because I don’t want any of my clients or potential clients to ever think that I wouldn’t want to help them.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (29:34)
or think what they’re going through is funny. Because that was like part of, you, mean, like that’s what made me uncomfortable listening to this. It was just like, wait, how did we get?

Camille McDaniel (29:37)
I need. Yes. Yes.

Well, yeah, because

it was kind of presented like, my gosh, poor you for having to work with them. You’re a rock star because that’s like not the ones that anybody wants to work with. It’s like.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (29:49)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was like an ego fest. I don’t know how else to explain

it. was and then and then finding out that then that whole entire thing was clipped or edited. then what’s presented out? I’m like.

Camille McDaniel (30:04)
edited it out because there was

backlash and you know and then they edited it out and then put it back up but it was too late. That’s it. It’s too late. The you know the client had the original taping of the podcast episode.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (30:17)
Right. Yeah, yeah. Which to

me, I think of that too. I’m like, okay, why would you do that in the first place as well? Like there’s so many layers and nuances that we don’t know, right? We’re just taking this information that’s in the public and we’re trying to learn from it because that’s what I don’t want to be where we’re exposing and we’re like, oh, look what happened or something. it’s more of like,

Camille McDaniel (30:43)
Right.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (30:45)
What did we learn from this, Camille? Especially as podcast hosts, I was like, oh my goodness.

Camille McDaniel (30:48)
Well, I will tell you. Yeah.

can jump right in and tell you right now it causes you to tighten up. You don’t know who’s listening. Everything doesn’t need to be said out loud. Do we have thoughts? Are we human beings? Absolutely. That’s what your journal is for your best friend, your colleague supervision, consultation. And then it extends outside of podcasts. Everything doesn’t need to be written in an online forum. Everything doesn’t need to be, you know,

put on video, everything is not for every place. So we have to be really careful because this is a lesson. So like you said, so it’s not like, my gosh, look at what happened, but this is like, my gosh, look how this took a turn that no one saw coming and got way out of control. It was already out of control when it slipped out the mouth on the podcast.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (31:28)
That’s right.

Camille McDaniel (31:51)
It was, you know, out of control when you posted it, but then guess what? Then the actual client was sitting there listening to it.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (32:01)
Yeah, that right there. think about like, wow, she already came from a very suffering background, right? And then sought help. And we should tell the audience she ended up with a therapist that actually helped her, which is so there was like, this is what we need people to understand. Like, we’re not everybody, you know, like, I’m not everybody’s cup of tea, right? Or,

Camille McDaniel (32:18)
Yes.

Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (32:30)
So like I know my niche and I think that’s important for practitioners to know like their own blind spots, what they are actually good at because can’t be good at everything because there’s so many generalists out there. And it’s because, you know, especially if you’re in private practice, you have to pay the bills and I get it. So we, you know, sometimes there’s that lull. So, okay, yes, yes, I’ll do it. I’ll take it. And we, and we rush, we rush through the consultation, like

Camille McDaniel (32:49)
Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (32:59)
I now have for, you know, for a 15 minute consultation for me to actually have a consultation, you have to answer a 10 question thing before I even and then in the consultation, you have more questions just because I want to thoroughly vet who is coming to me. So I know if I can because guess what? There might be somebody that I might, you know, I have my own stuff too.

Camille McDaniel (33:07)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (33:28)
that I work through. you know what I mean? It’s like, how do you create your private practice or your practice so it actually is functional for the client that you’re serving? Because remember, you’re serving, you’re doing a service and for you to keep your bandwidth healthy.

Camille McDaniel (33:28)
Yes.

Absolutely. Yes.

And I think, well, I think for us as clinicians of faith, if we are going to allow Christ into our businesses, the business he gave us with the gifts and talents he gave us, then we’re going to lean on him and not worry when we see that there’s a slowing down maybe of a certain season, or if we notice that maybe there are certain clients we are not a good fit for because we don’t have the specialization, the training, the skillset.

And then we worry, my goodness, how many more people am I going to pass on? Will I lose money? I that where does faith then come in? And that’s where we have to lean on the father to say, I won’t, I’m not going to rush this process. I’m not going to take people that I might not be able to serve. If I take somebody on and Lord, if I find out at some point in time, I’m not the best fit or I can’t take them the rest of the journey, I will be honest.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (34:28)
Amen.

Camille McDaniel (34:46)
I will share that with them and I will try to provide resources and referrals for someone who will be a better fit. ⁓

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (34:53)
Yeah,

know your, you know, the legal and ethical of your board because we’re licensed. We’re clinical clinicians that have a license. First do no harm. And I’ve had a situation, Camille, where, you know, after about six, seven months, I realized, I’m like, ⁓ yeah, I’m, you know, because that’s what happens too. Like we have to be, you know, in reality as well for as a clinician is like,

Camille McDaniel (34:59)
Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (35:22)
somebody comes in presenting one thing and then all of sudden it’s another thing and then it’s like, okay, now how do we deal with this without hurting them? First, do no harm. And that’s why it’s important to also have your backup resources ready, no matter who it is. Have it ready. Have this collaboration. This is why I’m in that mental health professionals group because I know like, all right, guys, like this is for couples. I’m not a couple therapist.

Camille McDaniel (35:31)
And yes.

Right, there you go, right. So

it’s like, let me actually have some people that I can refer to, let me kind of build my network. And as we talk about that, that kind of goes even to another question that was going to be presented in talking about ⁓ abruptly ending and how to properly terminate. So in this particular case, the client ⁓ alleges that the therapist

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (35:55)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel (36:14)
said that the client needed a higher level of care, but that all care just abruptly ended. And they were, ⁓ I think what happened was though, the client had some financial difficulties, said that they needed to take a couple of ⁓ sessions off or take a little break. And then when they tried to come back, the therapist said, no, you’re not my client anymore. And that sent the…

the client into a tailspin because they’re like, Whoa, what do mean? Like I have to start all over again. What’s happening? to which then the therapist said, well, you need a higher level of care. And

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (36:49)
Mm-hmm.

And this is a difficult one, Camille, because it could be as a professional, all of a sudden you call your insurance company with the lawyer and the lawyer is telling you, you just got to it. And this is such a hard part because it’s like, what do you do with that? Like you’re trying to do the right thing. Maybe, I don’t know. I don’t know this person, this clinician’s heart. But honestly, too, though, I think because of all the emails and the showing of

Camille McDaniel (37:11)
Right.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (37:20)
the diagnosis more and more of what was happening. She was realizing like, my God. So she probably got scared. so this is a thing too. Like, this is such a hard situation that we can learn from on both ends because, you know, putting myself in the clinician’s shoes, it’s like, my goodness, the fear she must’ve felt when she was receiving all that stuff to her, which…

Camille McDaniel (37:26)
Yes.

The client so as everyone is listening, the client acknowledged that as they started to spiral and feel as though they were losing connection with this therapist, because they thought the therapist was just done with them, they started emailing them. And the client acknowledges that they were out of bounds, basically above and beyond with the emails, to the point where the therapist then had to seek some

⁓ some legal assistance. And, and I would say that yeah, it is probably it is scary, especially if the emails have a certain tone and if they don’t stop. And especially after you have already disclosed certain things about yourself, and maybe even your family. So you’re like, now I’ve shared all this information and

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (38:29)
Well,

didn’t the client say, hey, I know your address and said that in that video. And I’m sitting there like, okay, ⁓ wow. And then she’s, think that would have been, that might’ve been the moment where the clinicians like, okay, what do I do now? Because you don’t know, you’re trying, know, sometimes as clinicians, we just mean well, like we’re doing, we’re trying to do the right thing from what we learn. And then something happens and then, you know, somebody else who’s got,

Camille McDaniel (38:35)
Yeah. That’s.

Yes!

Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (38:59)
trauma or has ⁓ what, you know, I don’t want to say the diagnosis, but was in psychosis because of all that, you know, attachment situation and I mean that, that, that systemic failure, like how else do you explain it, Camille? Like, you know, it was abandonment that happened so suddenly, but disguised as a boundary.

Camille McDaniel (39:05)
We’re here.

And that’s, let’s see, that’s what it was, right? Because when we do have to let go of our clients, I guess that’s something else too that we wanna take as a lesson from what we have witnessed with this situation. How are you assessing your client’s progress along the way so that you are able to not out of panic, but out of being well informed?

How are you able to then let them know you are going to need a higher level of care and start actually integrating that into the conversation? Are you assessing along the way how they are improving or declining? And so unfortunately, again, when we get too familiar in counseling sessions and maybe it’s more familiarity, more sharing of songs like

like the client said, they had like, I guess they were exchanging songs with one another and they were exchanging videos and they were, you know, swapping a lot of things. Yes. So it may have gone from being clinical to a bit too familiar, which also possibly set off the client because they may have felt like they were not just losing a therapist, but also losing a friend. And ⁓ right.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (40:24)
Books and stuff, yeah.

Yeah, and she already had attachment issues.

Camille McDaniel (40:43)
So what we can then learn from it is making sure in addition to the boundaries we’ve already talked about in this episode that we are assessing our clients progress or decline and what we then will be able to do is kind of get ahead on whether or not a client needs to be referred out so it won’t feel like abandonment especially for clients who have attachment issues and serious trauma in their past.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (41:09)
So

it would be preparation, closure, and referral. Preparation, closure, and referral. And I know I had a situation that, you know, it was difficult. Like these clients came in with, know, if we’re dealing with hardcore, like, trauma cases, right, because this is what we’re hired for as a clinician, some of us. ⁓

Camille McDaniel (41:12)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (41:37)
It is understanding, like first of all, not to take things personal yourself because sometimes it is scary, especially if you don’t understand other people’s cultures because that’s what I got after listening to it twice, the therapist podcast. It was just, and the client side is just like, was a disconnect. Like I kept feeling like, ⁓ you know, so being culturally competent is super, super important.

just because you were in community mental health, you still don’t understand the culture of a person if you really did not grow up that way. Unless you studied it, unless you really asked for the information, because you come in with, you you come in with how you are, not how the world is.

Camille McDaniel (42:17)
That’s true. So,

Yes. So I guess it’s almost saying that we need to be prepared to always be students, always be willing to learn. ⁓ We may have been doing this for decades and there’s still life journeys we are not familiar with.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (42:43)
Exactly. I mean, think about the next generations, Camille, right?

Like I might know something about like the Latina culture because I’m Latina, right? But I’m genuinely trying to learn about Gen Alpha, Gen Z and their language and their nuances. And what is 6-7? I don’t know. Like all this stuff that keeps coming. I don’t even. Yeah. But you know, you know what I mean, Camille, right? It’s being that lifelong learner. And some of us are exhausted in this field. We are.

Camille McDaniel (42:56)
Right.

Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (43:12)
We are. We are burnt out and we are exhausted because it has to like mental health was never spoke about spoken about and we’re breaking stigmas enough now that we have the TikTok therapist or everybody wanting to be this famous therapist or they think it’s so important to be in the public eye.

So how do we balance that? Like honestly?

Camille McDaniel (43:38)
I think that, okay, so maybe a little unpopular opinion, I don’t mean for it to be and I definitely am not stepping on anyone’s toes because I’m definitely not perfect. But we have to check our pride because we have to make sure that pride is not getting on in there and speaking in our ear and saying, look how great you are. Look at all these people who liked your pose. Look at all these people who are commenting. You’re saving all the people. You got this down pat, right? You know.

We appreciate, you know, a thank you. Hello. Why are you trying to bring up a whole nother episode? I’m, Diana has to come back. you know, really it feels good to be on track. It feels good to feel like you are, you know, before the fall. Absolutely.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (44:08)
It happens in pulpits.

No

Well, pride becomes what’s the verse pride comes before the fall.

And we have to understand this. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as good for building up as fit as fit the occasion that it may give grace to those who hear Ephesians 4 29. We got to remember that, you know, because many therapists that I see out there, they exploit trauma for clicks and clout. And do you want to be that person?

Camille McDaniel (44:39)
is.

Yes, that’s it. That’s not what we’re here

for. No, that’s not what we’re here to do. Again, if you never got an applause, if no one ever looked at what you put on social media, would you still do it? Would you still do it? Right? So we have to check our intentions. Why are we doing this? Is this really lifting people up? Is this really benefiting people or is it just making us more popular or us feel good?

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (44:57)
No.

Hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Right. And it’s a hard thing because I know like I’m Gen X, right? I’m the forgotten generation. I guess that’s what they call us or the ones that just lived in the street. know, we were the ones that had the commercial that said, it’s 10 p.m. Do you know where your children are?

Camille McDaniel (45:21)
⁓ so.

We

had that! ⁓ my goodness, I did not, I thought that was only in New Jersey. That’s so wild.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (45:46)
That was in New York. I grew up in New York when I was, yeah. So this was the seventies and eight. Yeah. We were, you know, we’re yeah. But so the point is like, I want to be, I want to give grace to those that are coming. like we’re passing the baton to the next generation of therapists. Right. And so they’re being taught these things of, my goodness. If I want to be one that’s relevant, I have to sit there and post every five minutes. I have to like get the

Camille McDaniel (45:48)
Okay.

I remember this!

Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (46:14)
the clicks and the views and the followers. But as Christian therapists, because this is who we’re talking to, it’s like, no, there’s a song that came out a while ago and I forgot her name, but I know it was called, I Want to Leave a Legacy. How will they remember me? Did I choose to love? Did I point to you? Did I make a mark on things? Did I leave an offering of mercy and grace?

Camille McDaniel (46:20)
Yes.

Okay.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (46:39)
I mean, I could keep going. think that’s what I want to say that came out in 1995. And I think the song was called Legacy. But.

Camille McDaniel (46:44)
Let’s see you. Okay. And that’s

who’s legacy? The world’s legacy, the legacy God gave you to put out there, right? And again, we have to, it’s been a journey. I for sure have learned it myself. It feels nice to have individuals say, thank you so much, Camille, you’ve helped. Camille, this, that, that feels, it feels good. I’m not gonna pretend like it doesn’t, but I also, know how that leads down.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (46:52)
Mmm.

Yes, right.

Yes.

Camille McDaniel (47:14)
Like I know where that starts. So I’m like, and thank you. I used to say many years ago, like when my clients would pay me compliments and that, Camille, know, you’re just so great. And this, this, that, and the next. And I would say, well, hold tight because you may not like me next session. I was like, but I’m glad you like me today. And that served a purpose for me as well. I used to say that because it helped ground me. Good Camille, you helped them. They acknowledged it.

Wonderful. There’s more work to do and you might make a misstep. Just be careful, you know, so, ⁓ and so for, know, and for clients, it’s like, I’m glad you like me, but you may not always like me as I am doing my job. And so it’s not necessarily always going to be too. It’s not. ⁓

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (47:44)
Yeah. Right.

Yes!

Right.

It isn’t about being liked. This ⁓ is the thing. It’s like ⁓

asking a doctor that has to do surgery ⁓ not to feel pain. It’s first, do no harm. It’s the attention of the heart. But at times in therapy, you are going to be challenged. It’s not about just stroking the client’s ego or being, it’s knowing the when.

Camille McDaniel (48:08)
Yeah.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (48:28)
the, you this is our training. It’s to understand, okay, now it’s time to challenge a little. It’s time to challenge that cognitive distortion because how else are they going to grow and help? Or are they just here for them to have a friend? Because that’s some therapists will have clients like that. And that’s what they need. It’s just a place to just let it all out. So it’s discerning and understanding, you know,

Camille McDaniel (48:30)
Yes.

Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (48:57)
what your clients need, but to move them forward because honestly, Camille, there’s people in our field that keeps clients on purpose to get the money.

Camille McDaniel (49:07)
Yes,

yes, unfortunately, right. And so for those of us who are practicing Christian counseling, we don’t worry, we should not worry about that because if we’re doing that, that means we are steering the boat, we are driving the car and we are not allowing the Lord to have his way in our business. If we are so afraid that we may miss out on money and miss out on opportunity, that it leads us to do things that are unethical. ⁓

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (49:33)
Yeah,

what comes to mind is like, are we here with our gift and talent trying to build the empire or are we building the kingdom?

Camille McDaniel (49:42)
⁓ and okay and that reminds me of a passage that says what does it profit a man to gain the whole wide world and lose his soul or what will a man give in exchange for his soul and that’s in the Book of Mark and that’s that that’s where we can get caught up like you said you know in the generations who are coming ⁓ you know after us and we’re passing the baton we want for them to know you don’t have to

be the social media superstar. I know the world is telling you everyone is online. That’s not necessarily who’s going to fill up your calendar though. And it’s fine if you feel led and if that’s how the Lord is using you, but make sure that was the assignment He gave you and not the assignment that you gave yourself. We can find ourselves in a whole lot of situations.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (50:27)
Yes.

And

sometimes what happens is we become very Martha-y, like instead of Mary, where we just are like doing, doing, but we’re doing it for you, Jesus, but we never stop to ask him. We’re doing it for him, not with him.

Camille McDaniel (50:36)
huh.

Right!

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (50:47)
And the reason I could talk like this is because I have gone through so many things and so this is where I’m at now. This is where these gray hairs come into play.

Camille McDaniel (50:53)
Yeah!

you know what is true. And that I think is another and that gets to the heart of it. And I’m glad you said that we can say this from a place of having been doing this for a while now, having just been living for a while now and ⁓ and saying, Hey, we want to talk about this because we want to be able to prevent anybody else from from falling into the trap. and if you find right now that you maybe are

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (51:22)
Yes.

Camille McDaniel (51:30)
are doing any number of the things that we mentioned in this podcast today, then it’s all right. You can turn around starting right now. ⁓ Consultation is something you should never shy away from. You get yourself in a situation, you’re not sure what to do, reach out and consult with someone that you trust. You find yourself in a situation and you feel like, I need to do even more than consult, contact your liability insurance carrier. ⁓

because it is much better to consult first your ethical codes, consult your commitment as a Christian walking this path, consult your attorney, or consult a colleague in the field that you trust. Because you don’t have to do this alone, and it is doing things that seem right in our own mind that sometimes can get us into a bit of ⁓ a sticky situation. Yeah.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (52:14)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

A pickle.

Camille McDaniel (52:28)
ethical indeed. So is there any other thing I know where we could keep on going but we can’t because we certainly could because there are so many different ethical codes. There are so many ⁓ things that sometimes I think get a little rusty in our mind. I mean when’s the last time everyone has checked their ethical codes for their different licenses and just brushed up on

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (52:43)
Yeah.

Especially with

social media and because this is a changing, mean, now you have AI, that’s a whole other episode, but AI and utilizing and podcasting, right? And actually I’m creating in, well, by the time this comes out, it should be done. But a CEU, a three hour CEU on because not only after…

Camille McDaniel (52:57)
god.

Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (53:16)
you gave me this, but I was already looking into these things as a podcast, because people ask me questions all the time, like, how do you do this and that as a therapist? And I’m like, so I had a review and research and look and how, you know, I have a disclaimer on my podcast at the end where it says, hey, listen, if you are my client or how I respond on my blog, like there’s certain things, like, I wanna, we should go back to the original.

father of psychology where it’s Freud where it says be that mirror and first do no harm and you know sometimes it’s like why would you share and what is it that you’re sharing like be responsible for what you’re doing and why like I have a mission and vision statement of my podcast when I first started it on purpose because I could get so excited about things and then I’m like no and then I pray like

Camille McDaniel (53:54)
Yes.

Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (54:10)
Prayer is probably my number one thing, Camille, is like, all right, Lord, do I want this person on? Why?

Camille McDaniel (54:16)
Right, yes, that’s perfect. All of that is what we need to think about. Why? Why are we doing any of the things that we’re doing in our sessions, with our blogs, our podcasts, our videos, any of the things, social media, why are we doing it? Because we can get swept away in what’s popular, but it may not be your assignment. ⁓ Yeah.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (54:41)
Well, I just want to also bring in that this therapist, A, created a whole course because of the situation, okay? And I get it. And you know what? It’s profoundly unethical to share client material publicly, even if you’re not naming them. So that’s another thing. It’s like to understand, like that’s why she was able to tell it was her because of…

Camille McDaniel (55:06)
This

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (55:06)
the things that they were saying,

Camille McDaniel (55:06)
is all in the detail.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (55:08)
all the details without saying the name or anything. And I was just like blown away. And how easy was it that the two of us were able to pick up everybody’s information? That’s what scared me too. Because as a podcast, I’m sitting there like, oh, this is the world wide web, right?

Camille McDaniel (55:19)
Win.

It really is. And I think that’s the other thing. you going back to our ethics and our ethical codes, when we are talking, even consulting, whether online in an online forum on social media, whether we are on our podcast, you cannot or in a training or any example, you can’t give out enough detail that someone might be able to identify themselves.

And that did happen. And then where the client got upset is because not only were they able to identify themselves, but then they said, and then you made money off of my situation because you created a program and then started pushing it out to all your other therapist colleagues. I was like, wow.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (56:07)
and to make her look like a demon. that’s what, that’s

what, see here I get upset because I’m like, wait, ⁓ my gosh. So, and I get it, like the, it’s like tone deaf, you know what I mean? Like it’s just like, wait, this clinician has no clue, like what is happening right now or does she? I have no idea. But that’s the thing, like it took me a lot, like, now what do we do? Do we report her? I’m like, no, like how does this work? She’s in a whole different state than I’m in and you’re in.

Camille McDaniel (56:14)
Yes.

next

Yeah.

Well, the client reported the therapist to the board in their state. ⁓ They said nothing had come of it, which is what even led the client to turn to her friend who was the popular influencer. I think her friend has like over 200,000 followers or something like that. But they were like, we just are trying to get traction.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (56:37)
With this.

Camille McDaniel (57:02)
and their story, their video, and all the details, there were actually quite a few therapist comments under the video ⁓ just in support and just saying that’s actually not how things are supposed to go. You know, it’s disturbing, but I think in all of it, what it causes every single one of us to do and do like immediately is to check ourselves, make sure

that we’ve not gone astray. Sometimes if we’ve been in the field for a very long time, we kind of can get a little complacent. Like I know how this works. I know how to do, but we always want to be assessing ourselves at every turn. How are we implementing treatment modalities? How are we disclosing things about ourselves? How are we assessing whether a client is getting better or worse?

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (57:53)
How are

we writing our notes in case the judge asks for them?

Camille McDaniel (57:57)
Yes, that’s a whole training, right? ⁓ Because here’s the thing, even in self-disclosure, one of the clinicians in my practice who’s a buddy of mine ⁓ has been for a long time now, she’s a social worker, but she said she went to a training where they said, if you self-disclose, you need to be able to, in writing, defend why you disclose that information in case that ever comes up or is challenged. It’s like, so,

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (58:19)
And yes, yes, yes, right. And that’s

what the, remember, that’s what the clients asked for. She saw a TikTok that said, you’re allowed to have your notes, clinical notes. And then she asked for that. And I think that was one of the many things that ended up making the clinician going, huh? And then I think that’s why she tried to shut it down as quick as possible without thinking about what the clinician, I mean, the client was

Camille McDaniel (58:28)
Yes! Yes!

I’m like, Yes.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (58:48)
⁓ wrestling with.

Camille McDaniel (58:49)
Right, it was a lot. Diana. ⁓ so we’re gonna wrap it up right there. As we do bring this to a close, like we said, we wanted to present this in more detail and go over specifically things that were going on so that we can all be informed.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (58:52)
so much.

I think we could probably do this for two or three more hours, but I know, I know, I have a client in a few. ⁓

Camille McDaniel (59:15)
We want it to be iron sharpening iron for all the ears that might be listening and so that we can get ourselves right in an order or stay right in an order. If you would like to contact or reach out to Diana, because we are gonna bring our episode to an end. She’s available, we will have ⁓ information in the show notes. She is the CEO of Through the Valley Therapy, but she also is now.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (59:24)
Yes.

Camille McDaniel (59:41)
putting a lot of effort and direction is going into her other business, which is transformed mind consulting and coaching. And she is preparing other people for presentations, for seminars, for how to present their thoughts and ideas as she actually has already been doing that. ⁓ The county she lives in, online spaces where she has been informing and teaching people and she is now going to pass that skill on. So I will have all of the information.

to be able to reach out to Diana in the show notes. So Diana, it’s always wonderful to talk to you, because you have such a well-balanced way of presenting things that we need to think about. And I always appreciate that. So absolutely. Any?

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (1:00:13)
Thank you.

Thank you, Camille. Yeah, I’m glad we

got to talk about that. Yeah, you know, I just wanna make sure that, you to understand that our witness as Christian clinicians is not perfection, but accountability. If we’re too proud to say sorry, we’re in the wrong profession. Okay, so let’s remember this. Let’s end with this Bible verse from Psalm 51 10. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me.

Camille McDaniel (1:00:39)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Amen to that. Amen. And as you said, we want to be open to being able to counsel each other. We don’t want to be turned off by wise counsel. of the multitude of wise counsel, you will win your war.

Diana S. Rice, LMHC, CIMHP (1:01:11)
Yeah.

Yes,

right. we went, remember, first do no harm.

Camille McDaniel (1:01:19)
Yes. Thank you all for joining us for this episode. Until next time, God bless.