The Enneagram in Christian Counseling: Can Everything Be Used for the Kingdom?

Camille McDaniel (00:08.203)
Welcome back to another episode of Christ in Private Practice.

As always, it’s wonderful for you to be here and join me on this journey. And so today, this journey is going to take us down the path of taking a look at the Enneagram and whether or not the Enneagram can be integrated with Christian values and worldview. Now, the Enneagram has actually come up online. I’ve seen it. I’ve seen people use it in business. I’ve seen people use it in counseling. And so let’s talk about it today because the Enneagram

actually shows up in a lot of spaces. And so I think it’s worth us taking a look at is it something that actually can be integrated with a faith in Christ and a walk with Christ and can it be beneficial for us to use? What’s the authority behind it or the research and what else can we can we take away and learn from it? So today may not be an extremely I think long episode but

hopefully it is a thorough one. So what we want to take a look at is first, what is the Enneagram? So the Enneagram is a system. It’s really kind of a worldview, if you will, in order to help people navigate through life. It’s actually much more the intention behind it was much more than just a personality type.

And so the Enneagram happens to revolve around about nine different types and depending on that type, it can really let you know more about how you think and why you think this way and how you might have a tendency to behave in certain ways or interact with other people. It can be used in order to allow you to plan.

Camille McDaniel (02:03.754)
the Enneagram shows up in a lot of faith-based spaces. So not only is it used in business spaces or counseling spaces, so mental health, but also has been used in like church retreats or churches.

things along that line as well and in that capacity can help you better understand yourself spiritually or see where you might have to watch out for patterns that could lead to a more sinful nature. The Enneagram has a number of types that essentially are helping you to better understand yourself and how you interact with the world around you.

And like I said, it shows up in a lot of different spaces, including mental health spaces, including church spaces. So it’s worth us taking a look at. One of the things that people have who have used the Enneagram, they have talked about it being helpful, insightful, helpful for planning, helpful for

prevention, helpful for just insight moving forward. And we’re not gonna really look at today whether or not the Enneagram works because there are people who say the Enneagram does work. What we’re really looking at is whether or not something that works can be integrated with a walk with Christ because everything that works doesn’t actually align with Christ and we know that already. And so we wanna just throw the Enneagram in there today to see

what we come up with.

Camille McDaniel (03:40.182)
When I think about like answering questions about the Enneagram, taking a look at it, I felt as though it would be really important for me to not just look at any random place online or just any random article or just grab it from like a blog post that someone talked about because this is actually used in a lot of places and a lot of individuals who are very influential even in the church are using this and so

So here I come along and it’s like, well, Camille, what would you have to say about this that could confirm or even deny what people have already laid out, right? So what I thought was, hey, let’s just go to the originators of the Enneagram system. Let’s look at what their intention was. Let’s look at what they’re even talking about as it’s related to how it was formed and how it was then advertised,

and what it is supposed to do. Thankfully I was able to find such information online. You know you look online and you can find some everything honestly. But here we can hear it directly from the individual who was credited with creating the Enneagram and the different Enneotypes and his name is Claudio Naranjo.

and I found first because I found actually two different clips. The first clip that I found was a interview that Claudio did in 2010 and in this interview he’s being asked by some of the other individuals involved, you know, who’s responsible for the Enneagram and the Enneotypes and how did it develop the person who’s interviewing him.

actually asks a certain question or two and I will make sure to list these the full interview links in my in my show notes and also online for those who are listening through Apple, Spotify or who are watching on YouTube. I’ll try to make sure to put those links there as well but for sure the links will be on Christ in Private Practice under this episode. So

Camille McDaniel (06:02.83)
going back to the interview, I’m going to let you listen to a clip from that interview because it’s always nice when you can kind of hear it yourself what they’re talking about and the interviewer is trying to ask him questions about how this developed and you’ll hear Claudio talking about how he got the idea, how he decided to market it based on what someone’s suggestion was, which I thought was very interesting because it turns out that maybe the

he presented the Enneagram initially had people thinking that he got it from some ancient practice way long ago and you’ll hear him, he has a thick accent but he’s talking about you know it wasn’t from the Sufis.

know there’s there’s some I guess story behind maybe it was taken from the Sufis, maybe it was taken from some long time ago Babylonian era and maybe it was taken out of you know out of other practices and so it’s culturally rich and grounded and actually you’ll hear him talk on the on the interview about how actually that’s not the case but instead he used it because it sells and he’ll tell you kind of where he kind of got that.

that suggestion from. So I’m going to pause and I want for you to listen carefully again. Some of the his accent is strong.

And so you can definitely look at the notes, the transcript on the website, christinprivatepractice.com. I list the transcript for every episode. So that way, if you need to take a look at what’s going on, you can, you can kind of see a little bit better there. And then after that clip, I’m also going to come back and I’m going to talk to you a little bit about another clip that gives you even more clarity about the Enneagram and

Camille McDaniel (07:57.472)
and how it was developed. So the next thing you’re going to hear or is, and for those who are looking at this on YouTube, you’ll just kind of see a picture, but this is a picture of the interview. And so I’m going to go ahead and play that for you now. Listen carefully to the language that’s being used. And then you can kind of think for yourself, what do you think about this? And here we go.

Camille McDaniel (08:51.544)
So now that you have heard that clip, if you notice, he’s kind of describing a little bit about where he received his information on the Enneagram and developing the Enneotypes. If you notice that they’re talking about a higher power and the interviewer is saying, you know, he also gets his information in the same way. And so someone then also clarifies within that clip and says, automatic writing. And he says, yes,

automatic writing. So a lot of the in-eotypes and the descriptions for it and how to form it kind of was downloaded to him from automatic writing.

And if you kind of look into automatic writing, that is like the understanding that you’re kind of receiving inspiration. Now, some people have argued that this was just inspiration that he received from within himself. But in the interview, as they’re talking, they do talk about receiving information from higher powers, higher sources. And so when we combine automatic writing with his acknowledgement that he also receives information,

from higher powers, then you can kind of see that it’s probably not talking about the type of information that comes when we just free associate, when we just sit still and free associate.

Instead, this is more than likely associated with automatic writing that comes when you are spiritually being downloaded into. Something is downloading into you spiritually that is giving you knowledge that comes from outside of yourself. Now,

Camille McDaniel (10:35.628)
He has not subscribed to being a Christian. And so he has not ever subscribed to or talked about getting these things from Christ the Lord. He has talked though openly about having a knowledge and understanding and belief in higher powers. And so we do know that there are many different deities and entities and spiritual beings that are in…

spiritual realms and they’re not all of Christ, they’re not all of the kingdom of God. And so you want to just be aware and think about well what does that mean if somebody has created a tool being used by many people and that tool was created from them being or receiving downloaded information from the spiritual realm but that spiritual realm is not a realm that involves Christ. Now

we’re going to take a look at Claudio in another interview. Now then this interview is one that must be taking place. I’m not sure exactly the location. Again, I will put a link so that you can see the full interview, but it must be taking place in some place where they speak French. And so you will hear Claudio speaking, but then there is also an interpreter for him. So that’s the part where you’ll, you’ll kind of see it gets, it gets like Claudio speaking and then there’s a pause because the

needs to go ahead and talk. But in this next clip, what you will hear is better explanation of how the Enneagram formed and also again where he received that information. If you pay attention, you’ll see that he was actually with somebody who originally had

an idea, a platform for the Enneagram. It was called something different initially. It wasn’t called the Enneagram and the Enneagram title kind of came up because it was just more marketable. It was just easier to kind of say.

Camille McDaniel (12:43.66)
You’ll get more information about that in the full interview. But listen to how he says he kind of went to better understand, he went to go visit someone to better understand how this whole enneagram was supposed to work. Well, he spent about a year with this individual and in that time, the individual only really talked about it maybe about six times, didn’t give it a lot of time. And Claudio is like, okay, our time is coming to an end and I’m having to travel back to where I

came from and you haven’t really told me anything which you will then hear Claudio explain.

how he was able to put it all together in the end. And it seems as though he kind of put it all together just with his own natural instinct and observation of people. And then as he says, kind of like, you know, he went from there. And so I’m going to pause now again and let you listen to this next clip that tells you a little bit more about how the Enneagram was developed and laid out.

Camille McDaniel (14:46.774)
All right, so there’s the second clip. And as you kind of are listening to the first clip and then the second clip, you get a better understanding directly from the originator of how this came to be. Now, as I did some more looking, I noticed that it’s not evidence-based. So this has not been, you know, tried and tested with any type of research, you know, and things of that nature. And when we are looking at scripture,

we are noticing that

scripture really does not teach that a system whatever system that may be that is rooted in a spiritual revelation outside of God’s revelation is one we should be following. We don’t want to follow revelations of spirituality that lead us in a path that is not of Christ. So again the issue is not about whether something works so we should use it because it works the issue is whether

or not this framework submits to the authority of Christ. And so I

I know that there are individuals who use it, like I said at the beginning of the podcast, this is being used in churches, this is being used by pretty influential individuals. so I just want to lay out the facts and have you do a little search for yourself, sit with your faith, sit with what I’m presenting, and you can determine how do you move forward from there? What do you think about this?

Camille McDaniel (16:26.192)
So when I’m talking about a worldview, a spiritual structure, it seems as though there is really no place to add Christianity to the Enneagram. Like you can’t Christianize the Enneagram really because the Enneagram itself is a whole worldview. It is a system upon which people navigate life and understanding and give people meaning and life meaning and themselves are evaluated and evaluated again.

other people and and all of that. It’s it’s a whole worldview really as you hear him in the interview, the second interview especially, the Enneagram was really not supposed to be just about a personality type. It was supposed to be a system of how we navigate in the world. And so when you’re talking about a system and how you navigate in the world, how do you add Christianity to that? Because Christianity is a system and how you navigate in

It’s a whole worldview of how to move through this world, how to see yourself, how to understand people and understand yourself, how to navigate highs and lows of life.

It has rules, it has boundaries, it has all of these things and it has ultimately submission to the Lord. And to try to put that whole system into another whole system would be a conflict. You’d have to absolutely change up one system or the other. You can’t take a whole system that has the authority of God and then take a whole system that has the authority of whatever spiritual

entity or entities that helped create it and then say we’re going to blend those together. You cannot take a spiritual system rooted in the authority of Christ. I know I’m saying this one more time right? You can’t take a spiritual system rooted in the authority of Christ and a spiritual system rooted in the authority of an unknown entity and blend those two together.

Camille McDaniel (18:36.416)
and you’ve heard it from the originator himself, it was developed out of spirituality, it was developed out of also his own observation, and all of that was then put together to give you what you have today. All right?

Again, when we’re talking about something that has no empirical research, when we’re talking about something that has an authority that is rooted in a spiritual entity or deity that is outside of God’s will and way, then are we talking about something that we should be using? And here’s the other thing outside of should we use it? If we happen to be serving clients who are coming that believe that their worldview in Christ is going to be in

incorporated into the counseling session. They are trusting that whatever we bring into the counseling session as far as a modality of treatment, that it is going to respect the worldview that they say that they want integrated. And so in order to be very ethical and professional,

if you decide even after this you know explanation of of a podcast you decide I’m going to move forward and still use the enneagram I would then submit to you that you want to fully explain what it is, how it works, what’s the authority behind it and also how that might work with or conflict with the client’s desire for a Christian integrated experience.

Now one thing I did not mention earlier, but I…

Camille McDaniel (20:14.41)
I hope it, you know, was already kind of assumed. I am not judging anybody who is using it because that’s not what I’m here for. I’m not here for anybody’s judgment condemnation in a way that belittles people. But if you happen to be using this and after listening to this podcast, you have some questions or even you feel annoyed, turn to the scriptures. Turn to what Claudio said. Turn to what the Lord says about submission.

yourself to other authorities outside of him in a spiritual sense or even in a physical realm sense. So this is not about just listening to Camille for Camille’s sake. This is ultimately about pointing us back to Christ in our private practice.

And so I hope that this episode has given you something to think about. I hope that it has allowed you to get some information that maybe you didn’t have before. And if this was helpful or could be helpful to somebody else that you know, pass it along. You all have done this many times before and it has been big in allowing Christ in private practice to get this far.

And so whether you are evaluating what to do in your church, in your counseling space, in your business consultations with individuals who are coming to you, let’s just remember what we have been gifted to do, why we are here.

and whose authority we are submitting to and also remembering that God’s authority does not conflict with our ethical codes. Actually, He does things right and in order. And if you look at your ethical codes and you look at what the Lord is asking you to do, you will find that there is no conflict. So.

Camille McDaniel (22:13.384)
I hope that this has been an informative episode. I think at the end of this episode you can kind of make some clear decisions but ultimately when we are talking about using things in our private practice, we want to be very careful.

of the spirit behind it. We want to be very careful that we are being ethical in our practice if somebody is coming and wanting a Christian integration. We want to be very careful for using things that are not evidence-based. All right, until we meet again, that is all I have for you for this episode. God bless.