From Sleep Science to Soul Care: Insights From a Sleep Medicine Physician

Camille McDaniel (00:02.476)
Welcome back to another episode of Christ in Private Practice. It’s so good to have you all here. And if you happen to be new, then welcome. I’m glad that you joined for this particular episode because today we are going to be talking to Dr. Benjamin Long. And let me introduce Dr. Long to you and then we will flow into our session for today.

So Dr. Benjamin Long is joining us and he is a sleep medicine physician with a dual board certification in sleep medicine and pediatrics. And he’s an assistant professor of pediatrics with expertise in sleep disorders for all ages and also is a seminary student. And as a seminary student, Dr. Long enjoys writing at the intersection of sleep medicine and Christian theology.

and he’s based in San Antonio, Texas. Thank you so much, Dr. Long for joining this episode.

Benjamin Long (01:05.473)
It’s a pleasure to be here. I’ve been looking forward to it.

Camille McDaniel (01:08.514)
That’s awesome. Well, then we’re going to jump right in, you know, because I found that this was a really awesome topic. I found that it was really nice timing to be able to speak with you. I had some clients and still have some clients who struggle with certain aspects of sleep. And admittedly, that’s not at all my area, but it’s nice to hear more from you. And I think a lot of us can benefit

from what you’re going to share today. so kind of moving into that, know, a lot of us as mental health professionals see sleep as a biological function. What made you begin kind of viewing sleep from a spiritual practice or something that God has designed for like a more physical recovery?

Benjamin Long (02:00.769)
Yeah, that’s great question. I, it’s hard to pick like one specific moment. I don’t think there’s like one thing, but just multiple conversations and books and you know, situations. but I think some things that kind of come to the top, think one, just exploring more of just learning the history of how we’ve gotten here in our culture of how we actually think about, fact versus opinion.

and the product of kind of being in post enlightenment culture and the shift from knowledge, you know, being more things that we can test and measure and that are concrete and things that can be, you know, confirmed in a lab. that was something that I think kind of cracked the door open a little bit to see how we view knowledge now versus, you know, pre enlightenment. and really just, an assortment.

kind of other experiences then started leading me to think about, okay, I’m learning all this about sleep and my fellowship in sleep medicine. but then I was just curious at what does the Bible have to say about sleep? And it turns out it’s actually quite a lot. So, it was, that, you know, just kind of set me off on my own journey of integrating these two, disciplines and, happy to.

Be honest.

Camille McDaniel (03:31.916)
Yeah, this is good. then, now for us as counselors, counselors who are not, most of us are not trained in areas of medicine, can you kind of just like explain in very simple terms for us, what happens physiologically during sleep and why disruptions impact our mood and our attention and our emotion regulation so profoundly?

Benjamin Long (03:58.273)
Yeah, absolutely. So we just started thinking about sleep neurologically probably around like the 1950s or 60s is when we, you know, put hooked up some people’s EEG and found, there’s like actually a predictable pattern of brainwaves that they’re happening here with sleep. And so we stage sleep by your brainwaves, but technically you have

changes all throughout your body that can be specific to sleep, whether that’s, you know, how your heart is beating, you know, how your lungs are breathing. So we don’t technically have to stage by neurologically, but that is the predominant staging that we have. And so you’ll hear people talk about non-REM stages one through three non-REM one, two, and three, and then REM sleep. There used to be a non-REM four long ago. And then we’ve since bundled those two together just to be

non-REM3 or sometimes slow wave sleep or deep sleep. If you’re hearing any of those things, that’s all this kind of very slow pattern to the brain waves compared to other stages. And so in general, I’m slightly oversimplifying, but you can think of REM sleep as being really important for your mind and your mental health. And you can think of that slow wave sleep and deep sleep.

as really being restorative for your body and like your metabolism and just your body recovering from all of the stress of the day. When you get into the nitty gritty, all of sleep is important for both your body and your mind. But we know that REM sleep specifically, that there’s something happening there and there’s this direct relationship between

what we see in the sleep lab with your REM sleep and a lot of mental health disorders. So a big amount of literature is on changes in REM sleep and depression. And so we know that people who are depressed actually tend to have more REM sleep and that they actually have a longer, what we call REM latency or how long it actually takes them to get into REM sleep as well. So there are these very specific changes.

Benjamin Long (06:15.959)
that we see and it’s, you know, one of those things that there’s still ongoing research to figure out, you know, okay, what do we do about this information that we have? and so an interesting thing is that the, your REM sleep, the medications that we typically are prescribing for that SSRIs and SNRIs that actually decreases the amount of REM sleep that you have. So in a way it kind of

confirms what we already know how it helps your depression. And that gets back to this question of, so if depressed people have more REM sleep and SSRIs decrease the amount of REM sleep, is there some relationship there that is important?

Camille McDaniel (07:01.07)
Okay, I did not know that. We obviously we do know that individuals who are struggling with depression do tend to feel a lot more fatigued and may have a hard time getting out of bed and maybe sleeping excessively, but had no idea that there was actually some research behind that to say that.

Okay, that REM sleep was more prevalent in individuals or longer states of REM sleep when you were depressed. that’s okay. You were simplifying it, but I think I’m tracking and I think the listeners would be tracking. That’s very helpful. then what are some of the more common issues like as far as sleep related issues that you see that can kind of, I want to say mimic.

or worsen mental health symptoms like anxiety or depression.

Benjamin Long (07:59.553)
Yeah, I think probably some of the most common you can think of, I’m not sleeping enough and I’m sleeping way too much. you know, even classically just in the…

development of the DSM and criteria for depression. Sleep is a part of that. We’ve known that there is this overlap between the two. And so that it almost sometimes comes down to kind of a chicken or egg conversation of, it the disrupted sleep that is leading to the depression or am I starting to get depressed and then that’s starting to disrupt my sleep and…

All that to say, we do know that it’s kind of like a vicious cycle, certainly. so some of it is just time, you know, that there are some people who are sleeping a lot more than what is recommended for their age range. And then there’s also the flip side of if I’m having difficulty actually falling asleep. A lot of times that tends to be more associated with, you know, the

anxiety and, know, difficulty with calming your mind as you’re trying to fall asleep at the beginning of the night, or if you have a typical nighttime awakening. and then I would say, you know, then just primary sleep disorders, the most prominent being sleep apnea, that just fragments the quality of sleep that you get as well. And so, with, with that, where you’re just not getting the benefits of that kind of

refreshment from your sleep, then that is really, you know, closely connected to then how you’re feeling during the day, how you’re able to function during the day, and can really perpetuate some of those mental health issues too.

Camille McDaniel (09:48.938)
wow. Okay. And I’m guessing also then when we talk about sleep, because some people are sleeping too much, some people are not sleeping enough. I know that for sure stress impacts sleep cycles, also developmental stages. I feel like I’m always hearing and I don’t know if this is just stereotypical. I’m always hearing about teenage years and them sleeping a lot. I don’t know if that’s, know, but it seems as though there’s a lot that goes into how sleep changes through the seasons of our life, really.

Yeah, really interesting. Okay. So then you have a journal coming out regarding sleep habits. Matter of fact, it’s called Sleep Habits Journal practices, prayers and devotions to ease your sleepless nights. And I know I was saying before we actually started taping, was like, it was very timely because I actually have some clients in that area. That’s not an area that I specialize in, but

Your journal actually gave me a lot of good information as far as how to even look at sleep, how to look at sleep with regards to faith integration in ways that I’ve actually not heard before. Can you kind of tell us a little bit more about your journal and how us as Christian counselors might be able to use it? Whether we’re using it with clients or whether we’re using it for ourselves.

Benjamin Long (11:13.249)
Yeah, absolutely. So the Sleep Habits Journal, I like to say it’s the book for people who don’t like to read. So it’s broken down into tiny bite-sized independent activities, and it’s all situated around what I call the sleepless night rules. And that is something that I modified from traditional cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia called stimulus control instructions or stimulus control therapy.

and essentially it’s trying to disconnect this association that we have with the bed and bedroom as being a place of being awake and frustrated and, trying to make it a place where you are calm and ready to fall asleep. And, the sleepless night rules, my attempt at integration is really just trying to anchor that in more of a Christian worldview and what that, means as, you know, what are.

me as a Christian, what is, man, we can go into a totally different conversation here. It’s like, what is my purpose in life? Where am I going? Where am I, you know, where am I coming from? What’s wrong with the world? How do we fix it? All this stuff, you know, all this stuff that is tied into a worldview. and so then specifically in the Christian worldview, then how do we, think about sleep in a different way?

what does the Bible have to kind of say about sleep? And that’s what I was really trying to distill all into the journal. And so since it’s centered around these five rules, then each chapter you can kind of flip to, and if you’re having a problem with that rule, then the activities in that section can kind of help you with that.

Camille McDaniel (13:02.54)
That’s now I had an opportunity to just see like not not the the copy that everybody can can get it is available today, which is really awesome on Amazon. So in looking at it, though, before this podcast, I was like, this is a really, this seems really well written. And so when you say like, for the people who really don’t like to read, I did not feel overwhelmed at all. Like it really was information.

and then kind of like exercises that I could use with my clients or use with myself, then more information. I also, I really liked how at the beginning of the book, you had a disclaimer for who should use the book and cautions for who not to use the book with because for again, for some of us, we have different specializations. So some of us may not be as informed.

about certain challenges as others. And I really enjoyed how your book was able to prepare people that, hey, if your clients have certain challenges that they’re dealing with, you wanna pause, maybe do some stabilization work because this could make certain things a bit challenging for them. But for other individuals, this can be really helpful right now. And you may not have to do any stabilization work at all.

your, I think your book then helps us as mental health professionals to implement what you have in the book and also align ourselves with our code of ethics. And we can kind of rest easy knowing that, okay, we can move forward and do this well. What made you actually decide at this point in time to kind of, you know,

like explore scripture and what it says about rest and, you know, giving people an opportunity to work through how they see themselves within the scriptures. Because you really in this journal, I mean, you really have us doing a dive within ourselves, within ourselves as it relates to certain scriptures and what the Bible says, and then exercises to try. So I mean, what kind of inspired you?

Camille McDaniel (15:18.028)
to jump into this and release it at this point in time.

Benjamin Long (15:25.099)
Yeah, I think the, what inspired me was just digging into the word and seeing what the Bible had to say. And, know, there is a lot of richness that comes from the wisdom literature of the Bible. that’s books, typically like Ecclesiastes, Job Psalms, Proverbs, all of those have really rich portrayals of sleep and good little nuggets. know, we all have our favorite,

Proverbs or Psalms that are really helpful in our daily and practical lives. And what I really was captured by was this almost like, I call it a motif, I think, in the book of the sleepless night throughout the Psalms. as you are reading through the Psalms, know, the sleep is not the purpose of the Bible. Sleep is not like the main character, obviously.

And so, you know, it’s never really like out front and center, but it’s there in the background. And so then as you’re reading through the Psalms, then you get these little kind of like steps all along the way and it follows this really beautiful arc in the same way as the rest of the whole collection of the Psalms or the Psalter. And that there is this beautiful invitation in the opening of the Psalms to

for the person who is happy or blessed is how it talks about it. It’s like this tree that’s planted by a river that never is going to go dry or wilt or anything like that. And really invites the reader to soak in the wisdom and the teaching of the Psalm. so once you are kind of sitting into that,

Camille McDaniel (17:10.124)
you

Benjamin Long (17:21.367)
Then as you’re walking through, people will typically say the Psalms are kind of like the Christian’s hymn book. It is the genre is poetry and it’s inviting you into this deep reflection of the spiritual life. And so along the way, you see how people are wrestling with their circumstances and how that comes out in barriers to good sleep.

you know, not too far in, think it’s around Psalm six that talks about, that I flood my couch with tears. and that couch can also be thought of like as a bed as well. So, so one part is really just as I started reading, just captured my imagination in a way that was a very different portrayal of sleep and understanding of sleep than what I just typically got from my science textbook.

and then I think the flip side of there’s a second part to your question.

Camille McDaniel (18:30.186)
that was really more so why now? no, why releasing it all right now? Because this is, mean, given everything that’s going on in the world, I’m like, this is really good timing. And I just wondered, you know, what made you decide now?

Benjamin Long (18:31.031)
No, that’s it. why now? Yeah, yeah. And I think.

Benjamin Long (18:49.315)
Yeah, it’s, I cannot take any credit of my own. This really is something I believe that God directed in that I was actually on my own journey to write a version of this book and actually had a whole book proposal and I was submitting it and I had seven nos from editors and agents and publishers that were like, no, no, no, no, And it was.

The general gist that I got from a lot of people, especially if you’re trying to like break into publishing is, different imprints and different publishers kind of have a lane. And so a lot of times some of the publishers were like, this is great. love all the Jesus stuff, Christian stuff, but we don’t do a lot of science. So this isn’t quite our lane or the flip side. They’re like, this is really great self-help. You know, I, I pitched it to a couple of secular.

outlets as well. And they’re like, this is really good, but there’s a lot of Jesus stuff and we don’t do Jesus stuff. So it, it was an interesting position to be in. so I really, at some point I had just kind of given up and I was like, well, God, like you put this in my heart and I’ve been working so hard at it. And I, you know, just like, I don’t want another no, like I’ve just had all these nos and

Camille McDaniel (20:13.902)
Okay.

Benjamin Long (20:16.867)
Um, the, and so then actually, um, the publisher reached out to me asking to collaborate for this gift book, this sleep journal that they had an idea for. And they’re like, Hey, we found you online, you’re a doctor and interested in sleep, but also, you know, very upfront with your Christian faith. And, uh, had an invitation for me to collaborate. And I was like, actually here’s.

my whole book proposal, I’ve been trying to write this book, you know, kind of a thing. and so then what resulted in the sleep habits journal is just this, beautiful, example of just what happens in a collaboration because I had this idea of a nonfiction trade book, kind of typical chapter book that you would get. And that was the lane I was going. And then the publisher had this idea for the gift book journal that was like these small independent

activities. And so then we brought them together, I really saw how like, this is this is really what this book was meant to be, you know, and so then just seeing how God was working all of that behind the scenes, like totally me unawares, is why I can confidently say, this is not anything of, you know, my own maneuvering trying to like get this book deal. It definitely was a God thing.

Camille McDaniel (21:39.928)
That’s awesome. And so all of those nos came together for a good reason, because you would not have gotten to this particular, okay, that’s awesome though. always interesting, the behind the scenes story of how things came to be. So then I guess the other thing that I just wanted to know was if, you know, as we kind of talking more about sleep and mental health challenges and the use of the journal, can you…

Benjamin Long (21:45.238)
Mm-hmm

Camille McDaniel (22:08.654)
Can you share with us just a few cautions? What can happen if those cautions are ignored as it relates to using your journal properly?

Benjamin Long (22:18.467)
Yeah, I, I definitely, as I was writing this had in mind exactly your situation, practitioners using it within the office setting with their clients. So one to make sure that I included that disclaimer, um, and then also space for it to really seamlessly integrate into clinical practice. And the disclaimer, a couple things with this sleepless night rules. One thing is, you know, we tell you to get out of bed if you can’t fall asleep. So obviously, obviously.

Obviously, excuse me, if you have someone who has limited mobility, that needs to be something that you need to be thinking about to make sure that you have a safe way to do that. But then the other thing is as you’re implementing the sleepless night rules, then you might actually kind of worsen the person’s insomnia first before it gets better. And so being cautious of conditions that can have some serious consequences if you are exacerbating their sleep.

So the ones I quote in the book are like seizures, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, all of those, if you are having acute change and having some sleep deprivation, then that lowers your seizure threshold. So someone can have a breakthrough seizure or for like our bipolar patients that they, you know, might push them towards mania essentially. And

And so not that this can’t work, but that I, like I say in the book, really collaborating with your medical providers and medical team. that way you are implementing the book in a way that is safe for your specific, circumstance. And then the last group that I talk about a little bit is, people who specifically have trauma as it relates to the bedroom. So PTSD, and, and especially if you’re.

bedroom is the place that triggers your trauma. I think this book can really help you, but it’s not designed specifically to address your trauma. you know, same thing, working with someone who has that experience that’s going to know how to integrate that in a way that is going to be helpful for that person’s journey.

Camille McDaniel (24:36.194)
That’s okay, that’s awesome. Yeah, that’s very helpful. Also, I don’t think many of us, again, not many of us have medical backgrounds and so not knowing about that lowering threshold for seizures or as you said, know, sleep deprivation, we know can definitely exacerbate certain mental health challenges, but that’s just good for us to know ahead of time that way.

If it happens to be that somebody is dealing with trauma or a trauma history, we absolutely in our community can consult. We have many trauma specialists amongst us. And so, yeah, we would be able to implement just fine and with some consultation. That’s helpful. But now when do we, so the next thing then as you’re talking about kind of like working together, maybe with a medical professional if need be, depending on what’s going on.

Based on just you being a physician who specializes in sleep, when would we as mental health professionals need to be aware of possibly making a referral to a sleep specialist for our clients?

Benjamin Long (25:41.464)
Yeah. I think a great one is just having like an easy screener for sleep apnea. The STOP -BANG is a very popular one that is easy to implement and often used in like primary care settings. And so essentially where they fill out the questionnaire. Yeah. The STOP -BANG is what it’s And it kind of has like they fill out yes or no. And then based upon the score that they get for that says

Camille McDaniel (25:57.439)
save that room or something?

Benjamin Long (26:09.635)
how high or low of a risk they are for sleep apnea. so having a standardized kind of screener could be really helpful. And you can also just ask in your history, like, Hey, do you snore frequently? Or is your bed partner saying, Hey, you need to go see a doctor because I can’t sleep because you’re snoring so loud. And, um, uh, and that I think is probably one of the biggest things that we talk about is just screening for some other kind of.

disruption to their sleep.

And then another thing to think about would be if just you are starting down this journey and you’re not really getting any response to the therapy as well. You know, they’re implementing the sleepless night rules. They’re kind of following the instructions. They’re doing what they’re supposed to do. but then they’re not really seeing any kind of benefit from it. Then that might be another point for us to say, Hey, maybe we should, you know, go to a sleep specialist. There’s been some research that has looked at.

okay. If I have both sleep apnea and insomnia, which one should I address one or the other or both at the same time? And really I, it, my understanding of that literature is that there’s, you know, not necessarily like a magic sequence. It’s just that both need to eventually be addressed. the, problem sometimes of addressing both at the same time is that might be overwhelming to the patient. And they have like so many stuff going on that trying to implement.

that as well as like CPAP if they get diagnosed with sleep apnea and all that stuff can be a lot. But the reassuring thing is if they are starting down this insomnia journey, it’s not working for them. They go see a sleep specialist and they’re diagnosed with sleep apnea and that’s starting to get taken care of. They can come back and redo those things. So sometimes having that conversation of, hey, this isn’t like a one time, it’s not going to work for you. Like these sleepless night rules or stimulus control therapy,

Benjamin Long (28:10.435)
or things in cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. They are kind of like the, you know, tools in your toolbox that you always come back to if your insomnia is worsening again. So we can kind of get this checked out, figure this out, and then come on back and then we can try again.

Camille McDaniel (28:28.242)
Okay, that’s helpful. Okay, nice. And gives us something to work with and allows us and I will make sure that on the website and in the show notes that there’s mention of the assessment that you were referring to. So people can kind of take a look and see what that’s about as they will keep in the back of their mind if they need to make referrals to sleep specialists for their clients. Okay, awesome. So then I want to ask a little bit about like rest.

as a spiritual discipline, technology and rest and all of that. So your journal talks about rest as like a practice of trusting God. And so what does it look like in real life, especially for people who feel really guilty when there’s so much more to do? I definitely have heard that lot in practice. Yeah, but I have this to do and I have that to do and I still didn’t finish that.

Benjamin Long (29:17.347)
Mmm.

Camille McDaniel (29:25.696)
What does it look like? Yeah, what does it really look like in real life, especially when it comes to feeling guilty about taking a rest?

Benjamin Long (29:34.614)
Yeah, absolutely. This makes me think of, I have a couple of activities in my book, kind of directly at this, where one, I’m saying, hey, let’s think about maybe in some ways how we’re idolizing productivity and efficiency and, you know, putting these things in a place where they’re not supposed to be and really try to embrace

the rest that God is offering to us and that we know that we need. So kind of in one sense, trying to say, hey, it doesn’t matter if you’re super busy, let’s find rhythms to be able to pull away from that. And then a couple of pages later, I had an activity that was like, okay, your life is like super busy right now and let’s try and invite God into that busyness. And so my editor was like, Ben, this kind of seems like you’re contradicting yourself, you know, like what?

What are we saying here? and, and so, you know, I have a fantastic editor and my book is so much better because of her. So, was able to clarify that a little bit to say, sometimes it depends upon where your heart is at and where, what your intention is. You know, I don’t want to. I was trying to be really thoughtful of the array of circumstances that people may find themselves in.

And whether that is a mother taking care of their newborn baby or maybe even their ailing parent, you know, the man who has two or three jobs and just isn’t able to, you know, get the typical sleep that they need to, you know, there’s such an array of experiences in our culture right now that it’s,

Camille McDaniel (31:02.05)
Absolutely.

Benjamin Long (31:30.529)
you may find yourself in a season where it’s impossible to stop, it feels like. And so for those people, say, hey, you know, we all have these moments in our day where we need to like breathe, you know, kind of come above the water a little bit. and so inviting God into that and making that intentional, even if it’s like, I just take a deep breath and I say a short

prayer of just recentering myself and remembering that of God’s love and affection for me. So that is a very different circumstance compared to the other person who I’m talking about, where I just feel like I have to hustle. I have to do all this stuff to make things happen. And I do that at the expense of getting the sleep that I need. so trying to call out if we have

put productivity and efficiency in a place within our heart and our desires that it doesn’t, it’s not made for.

Camille McDaniel (32:35.97)
that’s, that’s really good. And I like how in your journal, I’m glad you have the the exercises because I found that, you know, at least for myself, I can be reading something and kind of skim over it and be like, Yep, okay, I know I need to do that. All right, great. But this like slows you down because it’s like, Yeah, okay, now that you know, let’s actually put into practice some introspective work. Take a look at what you’re really doing. Why are you doing it this way or not that way or whatever? It was

Benjamin Long (33:00.717)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Camille McDaniel (33:05.313)
great how it then had something for you to stop yourself, slow down and really think about it. Don’t just, don’t just bypass it, you know, because it sounds like in all of it, it’s still re-centering us to know that we are not the captain of our own ship. And, but sometimes life gets to where you, kind of forget a little bit. And so it really grounds you. Yeah. And talking about grounding, I wanted to, I want to ask about this because in our,

in our day and time where screens are all over the place and we got phones and tablets and all the things, television and everything. And we take it all to bed. mean, for a lot of us, our phone is also our alarm clock. So everything like our phone or our tablets is right there. So you wake up in the middle of the night and you’re like, what’s going on? Let me see what’s happening online. What am I missing?

Benjamin Long (33:53.173)
Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel (34:03.554)
but how is technology affecting our sleep patterns, like really? You’re the specialist, so you tell us what’s going on here with how all of the screen time is really contributing to any sleep patterns that you all are noticing in the field and any anxiety levels that, and I throw in that to say, I know that for us as mental health professionals, we are seeing a correlation.

I just wanted to know if on the sleep specialist side you all were seeing anything but I guess these two things like how is technology impacting our sleep patterns and any anxiety levels and then what boundaries do you recommend for these like nighttime digital habits that we have?

Benjamin Long (34:50.595)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s pretty easy to see how research is showing that if you have nighttime phone use, then that’s going to impact both your timing for you to be able to go to sleep just because you’re on your phone and you get absorbed in that. so then you look up and you’re like, oh my gosh, it’s midnight. I need to go to bed kind of a thing. So, so delays your, your bedtime.

but then also sometimes just the quality of the sleep that you get as well. So a couple of things to think about there. One, just emotionally, know, if you, especially in our, you know, TikTok kind of scrolling age, the, the videos that you are seeing, you know, the algorithm is not trying to filter out things that are going to exact at like kind of get your emotions up, you know, like

Um, so you can equally see something that is calming and soothing and then scroll and all of a sudden see something really drastic. um, so, so that just that that you’re putting into your mind before you go to sleep, then really can kind of carry over as we’re thinking about just the content of your dreams. We know that there tends to be a connection between what you are thinking or feeling.

Um, or processing at bedtime and you know, some of the dream content, not 100%, but definitely can influence one another. Um, but then also for screens, just thinking about the light that is shining into your eyes. in sleep medicine, talk about zeitgebers. That is a German word for a time giver. And so your circadian rhythm is your kind of 24 hour waxing and waning pattern. talked to people about thinking about it as an activating rhythm.

So you can think about it if you stay awake for 24 hours and then all of a sudden you’re at like 10 AM the next morning when you should be really, really sleepy, but then all of sudden you have this little kind of burst of energy or you’re not quite as sleepy. Part of that is your circadian rhythm. You naturally have a time that your body is more activated and time than it’s more sleepy. And so the signals, your body has to…

Benjamin Long (37:14.731)
receive signals every single day to kind of keep you on track for having a typical circadian rhythm. And so things like eating, social interaction, movement are all things that are sending signals to your brain to say it’s time to be awake. But light is the strongest of all of them. So if you think about kind of those two things kind of interacting, light is always going to kind of be the heavy hitter.

And so screens, especially blue light that are shining into your eyes, that is just sending a signal to your brain that it’s still daytime. So that really can cause even more difficulty for being able to fall asleep. So some of this, practical things that I tell people is just turning off the phones, really even just like turning off lights or dimming lights as much as possible. I typically will say,

30 minutes to an hour, but depending upon the patient and the circumstance, sometimes I’m saying, Hey, let’s just turn off your phone altogether. I think it’s John Mark Comer has a, know, kind of good little quote about parenting your phone and putting your phone to bed and having a time where it’s like, okay, I’m not going to be on my phone. And a lot of times as I talk about sleep habits and thinking about how we have a cue and a behavior and some kind of consequence.

with that, trying to think about that as a system and what can I do in a way that is going to disrupt that. So that way I’m not on my phone. So it’s, know, a lot of times we just put it up to willpower and we’re like, okay, I’m going to set an alarm and I’m to turn off my phone. And for some people that does work. Just putting the alarm is the good thing. but then the alarm comes and you’re just like, nah, I’m going to keep scrolling kind of a thing. So, so sometimes.

Camille McDaniel (38:56.248)
Right.

Benjamin Long (39:08.407)
You know, you got to actually put it somewhere else. And so that’s why I actually really encourage not even having your phone at your bedside, having it like somewhere else across the room. So you can still use it as your alarm. And if anything, that helps you a little bit with getting out of bed in the morning, because then your alarm goes off and you have to like walk to go turn it off. Certainly, like that’s kind of how my phone is. have it in my bathroom and are there days I turn it off and then I’m like,

Camille McDaniel (39:30.625)
Yes.

Benjamin Long (39:37.367)
I’m going go back to bed. Yes, there are. But that at least kind of gets you thinking about how can I make this system easier for me to move toward the behavior that I’m wanting to see compared to the cycle that I’m stuck in.

Camille McDaniel (39:39.352)
Yes.

Camille McDaniel (39:55.374)
That’s a good one. Okay. Thank you. That gives us a lot of information that we can use for sure with clients, but also for ourselves. And I guess with that talking about for ourselves, Dr. Long, I’m going to ask you to give us some encouragement here. So a lot of us who are listening to this podcast, we’re mental health professionals. We are also students in graduate school studying to be mental health professionals, and we are tired.

We are physically and emotionally exhausted, especially with, you know, just helping a lot of the clients with things that are going on in the world today, as well as managing things that are going on in our own lives. So if you could, could you give us some encouragement? What would you, what would you tell us to try this evening, you know, to care for, how do we care for ourselves while we are also caring for others and running on empty?

Benjamin Long (40:25.943)
Mm-hmm.

Benjamin Long (40:38.092)
Mm-hmm.

Benjamin Long (40:54.475)
Yeah. I am wholeheartedly with y’all as far as, as medical professionals, we are the worst patients and we take so little time to take care of ourselves so often. and you know, can really have a servant heart. And I think that is necessary to love our patients well and to serve them well. But as you’re saying, you know,

that you can’t operate out of an empty cup. You have to have some time to fill that up. So I would really just encourage anyone who’s listening, especially if you struggle yourself with sleep problems and difficulty falling asleep, taking some time tonight to just stop, to not do anything.

go somewhere and sit, spend some time in silence. And, it’s not easy. So I wouldn’t say like, go do 30 minutes, but maybe just like set a timer for two minutes and allow yourself to just be aware of God’s ever loving presence to you, like to really just let God love you. And.

you know, as if you’re not someone who practices silence frequently, then it can be a little bit alarming because you, your mind just goes in all the different directions. and you’re just thinking, I gotta do this or I gotta do that or, know, kind of a thing. but just really having a spirit of just, letting, know, forgiving yourself for your mind to kind of wander, but just, you know, having a short.

breath and a prayer. lot of times I will just like speak Jesus name, just kind of recenter back on God and just really try to be quiet and receive kind of what it is that the Holy Spirit may be moving within my heart at that time. And it’s, I’m more and more experiencing

Benjamin Long (43:19.949)
how

odd is that I don’t think that that’s going to fill my cup. And yet it does so much. You know, it’s, it’s so easy to go to a screen or, you know, like, I love TV shows. I love movies. So, you know, like, are there some days where I just like turn something on and I’m not going to think about anything? Absolutely. You know, but, you know, when we, when we take that time as Christians to,

kind of submit ourselves to God via his feet and his presence and,

Benjamin Long (44:03.187)
it’s like the Holy Spirit is always there and present with you. And so, you like it’s, you’re never going to stop. And then God’s like, sorry, I’m busy. Like, hang on, hang on tight, you know, kind of a thing. So, so I think just, especially that person who’s so busy and they, they, you know, so much guilt, bring that guilt to God, you know, to

Camille McDaniel (44:17.9)
Yes.

Benjamin Long (44:32.865)
It’s okay to express that to him and like what I’m feeling what I’m saying. But then if you’re expressing that, make it a two way conversation and have some time to pause to listen because so many times we just like come to God and we’re like this, this, this, this, this, this, this, is good. Like God wants to hear from us obviously, but let’s take some time to listen and to really let God love you.

Camille McDaniel (44:58.066)
thank you so much. I know that is going to resonate with a lot of people. And just like you said, sometimes we can be the worst patients, but we need someone to pour into us as we are pouring into others. So I hope that everybody just really is wherever they are, whether they’re in their office or driving and listening to that, they really allowed them the message that you brought to just speak to them directly. That’s awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much, Dr. Long. So then.

Benjamin Long (45:20.931)
Yeah.

Camille McDaniel (45:23.93)
One last thing before we close, I just wanted to get your thoughts. As someone who is trained in both theology and medicine, just wanted to know what do you envision for the future of faith integrated healthcare?

Benjamin Long (45:38.838)
Yeah, that question actually makes me think of a patient who I do a spiritual history with my patients and I ask usually what or is spirituality or religion an important part of your daily life is how I just kind of opened that door. And I remember this one woman I saw in my sleep clinic who said, yes, and then immediately, but it doesn’t impact my care. And there’s

there’s this assumption that faith is going to somehow negatively impact your care. I think most, like if I’m speaking to a room full of medical students and I asked them to think how faith impacts healthcare, probably I would guess 90 % of them would think of a Jehovah’s Witness who is refusing a blood transfusion, like that stereotypical kind of interaction kind of a thing.

Camille McDaniel (46:34.548)
yes.

Benjamin Long (46:37.371)
And, and so, so I think in one way I would envision a healthcare system that Christians can come to and not be on the defensive, like the defense that somehow I can’t, I can’t bring this part of me to this encounter. I think is, is one thing. but then also I think.

You know, I think sometimes we’re operating out of a, just, a shallow theology of medicine and, need to spend some time and thinking about us as practitioners is also being the hands and feet of Christ. And, know, if Jesus is, is, has brought the kingdom of God, like it is here and we’re in that in between in the

here, but it’s also not yet. and, and really bringing that to bear in our workplace of how am I actually bringing the kingdom of God to my office and to my patients and bringing that question to all the different aspects of your system. You know, if you were in private practice, bringing that question to, um, if I am, um,

representing Christ and his hands and feet. How am I setting up my practice? Am I accepting Medicare, Medicaid? Am I cash only? Am I going to have certain fees? You know, I think that just, that’s going to be answered probably in a lot of different ways. But I think the point I’m just trying to make is that a lot of times we’re just not even asking the question of how should my faith impact.

Camille McDaniel (48:25.057)
Okay, yeah.

Camille McDaniel (48:30.701)
Right.

Benjamin Long (48:32.707)
how I am actually structuring things and how I am practicing medicine and healthcare. But then also I think, go ahead, sorry.

Camille McDaniel (48:39.81)
That’s, yeah, that’s.

No, I love where it’s taking my mind. Please don’t forget what you were gonna say. just, cause I know when I asked it, I wasn’t sure what you were gonna say. I just wanted to know what your thoughts are. But as you’re talking, it’s like, you know what? actually takes us in a lot of directions, not just the actual direct therapy or the direct like client care that you’re giving your patient, but it goes into all things.

How are we helping when they pick up the phone and we answer, you know, or have somebody answer? How do we, you know, usher them in through whatever paperwork or whatever experiences that they have as they were getting set up? And then, you know, as we are assessing them and then as we are collecting payment, like from A to Z, how is your faith showing up in every aspect? Yeah. Okay. I hope you didn’t forget you were gonna go on another, you were gonna say something.

Benjamin Long (49:30.743)
Yeah. And no, no, I think the last thing I was going to also say is just our own journey of integration. think a lot of the, have been fortunate to take a class in the integration of theology and psychology in my seminary that just actually finished up. And, you know, one thing that

is a part of that movement is just also thinking more about personal integration within the therapist or the counselor themselves and how, like if you are not integrating and you are not walking on that journey, then you’re not going to be able to bring that to your patients as well. so, so I think, especially if you are coming from

a training program that doesn’t have any classes or exposure to that integration. There is a robust dialogue and textbooks and theories around integration of theology and psychology. And are we supposed to do it? Are we not supposed to do it? How are we supposed to do it? All of those questions that come into that. So I would highly encourage people as they are.

looking at programs or even as they’re looking at continuing education opportunities, but there are some great classes. So like I, my seminary, Kairos University, the program that we just finished up actually is both available for seminary students, but also continuing education, I believe also for like people in the community to, to explore that integration as well. So yeah, that just, if you

me and my journey, I, as I was thinking about this, I was like, I must be the first one who’s thought about this ever. And what do I do? You know, kind of a thing. And then I realized, oh, no, I’m not, you know, like the, the, there’s, I, I benefit from a wealth of, um, people who have thought deeply about this and have written about it and have enriched my understanding of it.

Camille McDaniel (51:36.632)
Sorry.

Benjamin Long (51:50.264)
So I think in one sense, and that’s a lot of just like what you were bringing to your podcast too, of how should we think about our faith and the setting of our practice and how to, I think just asking the questions is that first step on that journey.

Camille McDaniel (52:09.858)
that absolutely, and that you bring up a lot of good points in what you’re sharing that causes us to reflect on ourselves and what we’re doing, especially with making sure that we’re getting the continuing education or the training, because like you said, if it’s not within us and we’re not doing it, it’s not really something that you can bring. So yeah, thank you so much for everything, Dr. Long, just for explaining and helping us to better understand.

the nuances of sleep medicine for your journal that is out today. So again, if anyone is interested in implementing that with their clients in their practice or even for themselves and for their family and friends, that is Dr. Benjamin Long and his journal is called Sleep Habits Journal, Practices, Prayers and Devotions to Ease Your Sleepless Nights.

available on Amazon. And so I will have all the information on the website and in the show notes. But you know, just for anyone who’s listening, definitely check that out. I saw the book myself, the journal is really good. And, and I definitely see where I can incorporate that with clients that I serve, because it just helps to add more value to all of the

training that I have amassed over the years. So thank you so much. Is there anywhere else that individuals can find out more about you or the work that you’re doing?

Benjamin Long (53:50.05)
Yeah, I’m on like Instagram as at the whole hearted MD. So you can find me there and that’s the same as my website, the whole hearted MD.com. But also if you just Google Dr. Benjamin long, I think I’ll probably pop up too. and then you can just go to sleep habits journal.com and that will bring up all of the different kinds of retailers as well. If you’re interested in that, I am trying to work at.

finding ways to be able to just serve the, mental health professionals in various communities. So if you were interested in, you know, having some kind of a training event or something like that of, how, you know, like I want to integrate this into my practice, but I’m not necessarily trained in cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. I would be more than happy to, you know, have a conversation about finding a way to help you, be able to.

integrate that and feel comfortable implementing it.

Camille McDaniel (54:50.836)
Awesome. Well, again, thank you for joining us today. And as everyone heard, you can find Dr. Long in multiple spaces and get the information for yourself and for your practice. Until we meet again, again, thank you all for joining and God bless.