When Secular and Faith-Based Relationship Frameworks Collide in Counseling

Camille McDaniel, LPC (00:00)
we jump into today’s episode, I wanted to just take a moment to share something really exciting. First, this episode marks an important milestone because we are officially beginning the countdown to episode 100 of Christ in Private Practice. And I can hardly believe that we are already here. But I’m really, really excited about it. So whether you’ve been listening since the very beginning or whether you just recently joined,

joined. Thank you for being part of this community. Definitely couldn’t have gotten here without you sharing, without you sharing, without you sharing with others and us therefore growing to different parts of the world even.

One of the things that I noticed over these last 90 episodes is that many Christian counselors are asking deeper questions about faith integration, questions about how to remain faithful to biblical convictions while practicing ethically, or questions about spiritual assessments, clinical decision making, and counseling modalities, and how those modalities might line up with biblical frameworks, navigating complex client situations, and how to do all of this.

With wisdom and compassion and make sure that we are being ethical. And because of these conversations, I’ve been working on something new. I’m going to talk about it more next week, but I’ll share all of that ⁓ and more details and all of the good stuff. But ultimately, it’s called Faith Integration Consultation Community. And this will be a place where Christian clinicians and clinicians who are Christians can come to engage in ongoing learning, case conversation.

consultation, discussions, practical resources and tools, and real-world faith integration conversations, along with an opportunity to gain continuing education credits. So I’ll be sharing again, like I said, more details next week, but I wanted to just give you a glimpse of what’s ahead. Now speaking of faith integration, today’s episode with Melissa is a perfect lead-in because we’re going to be discussing what happens when secular and faith

relationship frameworks collide in counseling and how Christian clinicians can thoughtfully navigate those tensions. So let’s get started.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (02:57)
Welcome back to another episode of Christ in Private Practice. So good to have you along for another episode. And if you happen to be new here, then welcome. You’re in for a treat. Today we actually have a guest on our podcast, Melissa Jindro. She is going to be talking with me today. And I think you’re going to really enjoy the topic. So let’s dive right in. I’m going to introduce you to Melissa and then we’re going to get started. ⁓

Melissa is a licensed mental health counselor and she’s a Christian coach. ⁓ She also actually has a podcast that you all should check out. It’s called Forward Path with Melissa, Life and Marriage God’s Way. And she is also a very compassionate speaker where she blends scripture and story and professional insight to help you feel understood and help you be encouraged and to embrace your true identity in Christ with.

A humble confidence in every area of life and relationships. So we are really happy to be able to talk to you today, Melissa.

Melissa Gendreau (04:07)
Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (04:09)
Absolutely. Well, today, everyone, we are going to be talking on the topic when secular and faith-based relationship frameworks collide in counseling.

Melissa Gendreau (04:23)
Yeah. And I think one of the big issues or pressure points, I think, for a lot of Christian therapists is having to navigate just the frameworks that we currently are experiencing ⁓ and just maybe the newer trends that we’re seeing in some of the

therapy trainings, some of the recommended, maybe best practices. And so for as therapists really needing to make sure that we are understanding ⁓ what those frameworks are ⁓ and how they are either going to maybe help our clients, how they’re going to maybe cause some struggles for our clients. And I think sometimes even just understanding ⁓ who our clients are.

and what their focus and desires are for therapy too.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (05:25)
That’s a good one because there are a lot of changes. You mentioned some changes in the way things are happening with our trainings, with our recommendations within professional fields. and I think that does have a lot of individuals wanting to have something steady, ⁓ just wanting to have some direction about what to do and where to go. So with that being said, can we

Melissa Gendreau (05:35)
Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (05:47)
Let’s flesh out what do you what do you feel it means like when we’re talking about secular relationship frameworks and ⁓ and faith-based or Christ-centered relationship frameworks, you know, what are you noticing as far as what is the collision, you know, ⁓ and why why does that get us so emotionally charged?

Melissa Gendreau (05:54)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think some of the big collisions end up being, ⁓ I would say specifically for marriage, ⁓ some of the marriage frameworks. ⁓ There’s going to be big differences between some of the secular frameworks and our more Christian Christ-focused frameworks. ⁓ Another area that I think that we are seeing maybe even more profoundly is the family frameworks and the parenting frameworks.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (06:36)
Okay.

Melissa Gendreau (06:37)
⁓

And I think in both of those, the biggest collisions are where’s the focus? ⁓ Where is the… I’ll even say who’s the focus, right? ⁓ So I would say the big collisions when it comes to the marriage ones is ⁓ the focus tends to be more on how is each spouse ⁓ getting their own needs met. And the expectation seems to be

Camille McDaniel, LPC (06:49)
Yeah.

Melissa Gendreau (07:07)
is the other spouse meeting that for them. So it tends to be a lot of, am I getting from it? ⁓

Camille McDaniel, LPC (07:15)
Okay. In the

in in the more secular frameworks, you’re seeing that is more like what am I getting out of this? Okay. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Melissa Gendreau (07:21)
Right. Yep.

And then in a lot of the parenting and the family frameworks, it is either pretty straightforward kind of kid first framework, ⁓ or it’s a very all equal points. Like everyone is all equal within the family. And I think that the hard collision is we can even understand the heart behind the framework.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (07:34)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Gendreau (07:51)
⁓ And the heart behind, I think, all therapy frameworks is to hopefully help the person across from us. ⁓ It’s just trying to recognize ⁓ who is it actually gonna benefit and why or how. And I think that’s where, ⁓ as Christians in private practice, it’s…

Camille McDaniel, LPC (08:00)
Yes.

Melissa Gendreau (08:16)
It’s helping us to be able to know how can we balance that and help our clients recognize what’s actually going to be helpful and beneficial for them, kind of regardless of the framework. And then that really leads us into who is our client and what are they expecting or what’s their framework for us to be able to figure out what to work with.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (08:42)
I I like that. What do you notice then for the Christ centered frameworks?

Melissa Gendreau (08:48)
Yeah, so Christ-centered framework, I mean, the hope is that the first and foremost foundation is Christ first, is Jesus at the center of the marriage, is that Jesus is the center of the family. Once we go beyond that, marriage then is more about the unity. It’s about how are we best

serving each other? How are we best being devoted to each other? How are we ensuring that we are honestly taking care of our own emotional well-being, our own thought processes, so that we can take care of our spouse in a God-honoring and loving way? In the family and parenting frameworks,

it really is helping more the understanding of what’s the hierarchy. So if we are saying, you know, God first, then it is ⁓ the biblical model would be your spouse next, then your kids, then everyone else. And so it’s really having to navigate and shift again, where are your clients and what are their thought processes?

Camille McDaniel, LPC (10:08)
Which in some way seems to be

timeless when I think about it when you’re talking about a framework that involves Christ that’s kind of timeless. And I do notice at least like from what I see online with more secular frameworks, sometimes can also ⁓ pattern or sometimes parallel. I don’t want to, I don’t want to say it’s all the time, but I do notice sometimes it does mimic society. So right now when you talk about ⁓ people are really looking at what do I get out of it a relationship? How am I feeling?

Melissa Gendreau (10:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (10:41)
what are my my goals, what are my dreams? What do I need out? So it’s very eye-centered. and and that sometimes shifts with the culture. Sometimes it’s very eye-centered at this point in time. Sometimes it might be something else just similar to what you’re talking about also with parenting. We had like a big movement of like gentle I know I’m sure many people have heard the per the term gentle parenting. ⁓ And so then there was this big shift in move to like you you mentioned just earlier people

Melissa Gendreau (10:46)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Yes.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (11:11)
to be on the same level almost treating your child even if that’s not what they were calling it but kind of giving your child respect as if you’re talking about two equals in the relationship instead of there being a delineation.

Melissa Gendreau (11:20)
rapes.

Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (11:24)
Not that the unequal is a negative, but just being like, hey, parents have certain duties that children don’t, and children have certain duties that parents don’t, and you know, how do we how do you move forward? So there that’s very interesting ⁓ that you even kind of brought that to light to put words to it, you know, so which got me really kind of thinking, so you know, even though we see the differences, do you do you see any places where there might be overlap?

Melissa Gendreau (11:33)
right.

Even though we see the differences, you see any places

Camille McDaniel, LPC (11:52)
where there might be between a Christian framework and a secular framework, are there any similarities? I don’t I don’t know, are there?

Melissa Gendreau (12:01)
Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think again, I think the goal and the hope in all the frameworks is ⁓ for the marriage and for the family system to be healthier than what it currently is. ⁓ So I think there’s the understanding that in regardless of the situation, maybe something’s not going well. ⁓ And the hope of the framework is for things to go better. ⁓

I think the biggest difference then is sometimes even just identifying what’s the problem. If we have a different view of what the problem is, then it gets a little bit more complicated trying to figure out what the solution is. I think even right now, we can even struggle with recognizing then what would healthy look like.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (12:47)
Yes. Makes sense.

Melissa Gendreau (13:00)
And so I think because we maybe have such a big shift in frameworks and shift in ⁓ foundation, what healthy looks like ⁓ can be really different.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (13:14)
That’s a good point. Okay. So then that takes me right into then what what are some things that Christian counselors might feel as far as tension? Because if the definition changes ⁓ and we’re trying to keep up and we’re trying to also hold tight to our convictions, we’re trying to be ethical and professional and compassionate, right? You know, it’s ⁓

Melissa Gendreau (13:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Camille McDaniel, LPC (13:39)
What are some of those tensions that you notice Christian counselors might feel? You know, between what they have learned, whether it’s in grad school or whether it’s in some of the continuing education trainings that they’re getting that may not be faith-based, ⁓ the tension between what they’re learning and what they actually believe as far as their faith.

Melissa Gendreau (13:59)
Yeah, and I think that is a very real tension that is really important, I think, for all therapists to acknowledge that they are holding all the time. And I think for any Christian therapist who’s maybe been in the field for a while, ⁓ that’s something I think maybe we have figured out or hopefully figured out how to navigate and hold. ⁓

I don’t know necessarily how that’s taught for maybe the newer clinicians in the field. ⁓

Camille McDaniel, LPC (14:38)
I don’t think it’s actually addressed much. I think I really

do think it’s still the old adage of be neutral. Like you can be neutral. You need to stay neutral. I think that’s actually still very much so what’s being taught. I don’t think this is actually being addressed, which is why I love that you’re here, you know, with the marriage and family perspective of things to say, okay, like how how do we address it then? What are some of those tensions and what do we do?

Melissa Gendreau (14:49)
Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

I think the biggest thing for a clinician to need to hold in balance is ⁓ really fleshing out who are your clients. ⁓ I think when we are in private practice, you have some say on who your clients are, or at the very least, depending on how you market yourself. ⁓

Camille McDaniel, LPC (15:26)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Gendreau (15:34)
really might depend on who you get for clients. ⁓ So I think there is a difference between someone who is a Christian and does therapy versus somebody who is a Christian therapist. ⁓ And those can be marketed really differently. ⁓ So if a clinician has a website or whatever your ⁓ marketing ability is,

and you are putting first and foremost that you are a Christian if parts of ⁓ what you say you are going to be able to help your clients with is maybe spiritual formation or ⁓ biblically rooted counseling. If you’re saying all of those things, ⁓ part of it is you will likely flesh out ⁓ clients who aren’t Christian ⁓ more often than not. ⁓

Nah, you might still get somebody who ⁓ they might be seeking you out for a really interesting reason. ⁓ And there might be some who are seeking you out, unfortunately, for maybe some nefarious reasons. ⁓ But if you are acknowledging that you are a Christian who does therapy, ⁓ then that one is likely more of a tension you’re going to have to hold.

because you more likely than not are going to get clients who are not Christian ⁓ or at the very least don’t want therapy from a Christian perspective. ⁓ Then it’s really important for you to help hold that tension is what is your informed consent say? ⁓ Do you have, like in your intake process, do you make sure that you have, do you want therapy from a Christian perspective? Yes or no.

⁓ And then if it’s yes, then do you have the opportunity to flesh that out more? Do you have questions on there that say, what does that mean to you? Do you want prayer to be a part of therapy? Do you want scripture to be a part of therapy? And giving them even the opportunity to ⁓ maybe write in their understanding. Because that’s going to help you as a clinician quite a bit.

know where is your client coming from so that you know how to really prepare for that client and for that session.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (18:14)
That’s really helpful because it really helps people to align a bit of who they are and their convictions with the client’s goals. Like if well, starting at the beginning, if the client sees, you know, I don’t really think this is gonna be a good fit for what I’m seeking, then they’re not going to, you know, reach out. But even if they do still reach out, which does happen, ⁓

Then they are like, okay, yeah, I know what I’m going to be getting here. And then you put that in writing. So then you actually yeah, mitigate the amount of times that you might actually even have to hold attention in the first place. Okay, okay. So

Melissa Gendreau (18:42)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (18:52)
What about like just with regards to the clients that ⁓ in relationships or in marriages, their goals for their relationships are vastly different from your your own worldview, even if they say, like, let’s say they they say, Yeah, I’m I’m a Christian, you know, ⁓ and and I’m glad that you are too. But then when you get down to the goals, you’re like, ⁓ okay, this is very different.

Melissa Gendreau (19:19)
Yeah. part of that, I think, is asking questions from a place of curiosity. So if they are saying that they are Christian and they are saying that they hold Christian values, and if you guys have acknowledged that that means to biblical, scriptural, Christian base, and their goals are still

vastly different, ⁓ then the question becomes, where did these goals come from? ⁓ To be curious about that of what has caused this to be one of your guys’ goals? ⁓ What’s led you guys to this goal? Why are you believing that this goal is going to be best for you or beneficial? Because if you’re asking those questions from a place of curiosity,

For one, it gives you a wealth of information to be able to move on from, to be able to then ask the follow-up questions. ⁓ It helps you to be able to flesh out, ⁓ is this something that they heard somewhere and thought, hey, this is the best new trend? ⁓ Is it something that they had ⁓ come up with themselves or is this something that ⁓ maybe they’ve been advised by someone?

⁓ It helps you then to be able to keep navigating and ⁓ maybe reworking those goals, but they need to be the one that is deciding that. Even if it goes against your views, even if you believe it to be unbiblical, they are the experts of their own story.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (20:47)
Yes.

Melissa Gendreau (21:15)
⁓ And we are the ones that are to be able to help guide that. ⁓ But we don’t get to be the ones to decide what their goals are.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (21:24)
Okay, that’s and that’s important because I think and and you tell me what comes up for you, but

I think that then distinguishes between you being able to sit with a client who has a vastly different worldview and not feel like you’re the person who has to correct because they are the author of their story, whether whether you know it to be b biblical or not, you know, but that’s their story. And your curiosity allows you to better understand their worldview, how their mind thinks, and then why maybe part of that is contributing to some of the patterns that have brought them.

to your office. ⁓ versus doing yeah.

Melissa Gendreau (22:02)
Absolutely. Absolutely. I really think

that anytime we’re meeting with a client, it’s important that we’re actually meeting them where they are first. And the hope is always helping them further along than where they currently were. So the hope is to help them move from whatever current level of distress they’re experiencing, ⁓ whether that’s ⁓ individually, marriage, family, parenting. ⁓

to help them get further down the path than where they were before. ⁓ But we don’t actually get to dictate what the end line is. And that helps us to be able to hold that balance too. ⁓ remembering, we don’t actually have to agree with what their prescribed end goal is. ⁓ So that helps us to be able to say, just because our client maybe

Camille McDaniel, LPC (22:39)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Melissa Gendreau (22:59)
either isn’t a Christian at all or maybe it’s just at a different level in their faith, that doesn’t mean we have to backslide in our faith. We can hold both of those true at the same time.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (23:11)
And I think that sometimes gets a little difficult, ⁓ you know, especially for clinicians who that was not a part of their training. So there’s a desire to actually serve well and ethically and professionally, but being being taught mostly secular frameworks and then you know, coming into ⁓ more

Melissa Gendreau (23:20)
Right.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (23:34)
price centered frameworks. It’s like, how does this work? How do we, you know, how do I not recognize the, you know, the error and the way they’re thinking and not maybe challenge it. And is there a way to ethically challenge it? And as you’re talking today, you’re like, no, we’re we are gaining more information and understanding about our clients. So we understand where they want to go and how that may or may not be impacting them positively or negatively. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That can be

Melissa Gendreau (24:02)
Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (24:04)
kind of that can be a little tricky sometimes. So ⁓ and it c because you know sometimes ⁓ clinicians worry that they only have two choices and that they can either compromise their faith or they can go and be judgmental. Like they’re they’re like, you know, if I’m how what you know, but what what

Melissa Gendreau (24:08)
It can be.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (24:25)
Do you think about that? Like, you know, the fact that they feel like either I am going to either go along with my faith or I’m going to compromise my faith. If I go along with my faith, I’m just going to be judgmental. And if I compromise my faith, now I’m in conflict with what is very important to me.

Melissa Gendreau (24:38)
Yeah.

Right. And I think it’s reminding that we have a third choice. And the third choice is curiosity and compassion. And that hopefully is how we are coming into every session that we have, ⁓ regardless of where the clients are coming from and what their framework is, is ⁓ to look at it through the lens of

how can I help them within the confines of how they’re wanting to be helped? ⁓ Because that can be true even of our clients who are devout Christians and believe and agree with everything that we maybe do. But if they’re not actually in a place of change yet, ⁓ we can’t force that change either. ⁓ So it’s also just remembering. ⁓

Camille McDaniel, LPC (25:30)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa Gendreau (25:41)
We are there for ⁓ support. We are there for ⁓ asking the wise questions. We are there to help with ⁓ the tools that they are going to be able to best utilize. ⁓ Part of that, I think, is important for therapy clinicians to have a good understanding of ⁓ the different therapy modalities.

⁓ and those different frameworks. I guess I was in grad school a long time ago. I remember having an amazing, ⁓ it was actually a therapy history class where the whole point of it was to go through all of the major therapy modalities ⁓ and to walk through ⁓ who founded it.

⁓ Why did they find it? Why was it ⁓ the framework that they did? And then you learned a little bit more about who they were as people. ⁓ In learning about that, in having a better understanding of what was their point of wanting to ⁓ utilize this new framework, like why did they think this was better than something else, ⁓ really helped for me to be able to flesh out

Is this a framework that I agree with? ⁓ Do I believe that their foundation is ⁓ biblically sound, but do I believe that this is even a framework that I think makes sense for how I think and how I’m best going to be able to help my clients too? I’m not sure if classes like that even exist anymore ⁓ to the extent of that.

⁓ So, I think that is important that for maybe new clinicians or newer clinicians, if that wasn’t ⁓ maybe a class that you experienced, ⁓ I would really encourage you to seek out information to have a better understanding of maybe some of those therapy modalities and do they or can they align with scripture. ⁓ And if they can’t, ⁓

then maybe that being a framework that you’re not utilizing. Because even if you’re not talking about God, right? Like if I have a client in my office that does not want therapy from a Christian perspective, ⁓ one of the things that helps me is I still know that my framework.

still works from a biblical model. It still follows that, even if I don’t say God at all, even if I’m not talking about scripture, even if I’m doing nothing like that. But if I know that how I’m approaching therapy, I still believe is aligned with biblical knowledge, ⁓ that helps me to be able to handle and manage even if it’s topics I maybe don’t agree with.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (28:54)
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense and it is ac

It’s right on point because if you do have an understanding, a deep understanding of the different modalities, and then if you have an understanding of your word, you absolutely can compare it. And not necessarily an understanding of your word to the point of like being able to break it down the way maybe a a preacher would. But I mean, you know, do you do you know what the Lord is telling us and his warnings and his promises? And you can easily look at modalities and say, this does line up with his teaching.

Melissa Gendreau (29:26)
Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (29:27)
about humanity and and the need for salvation and and such and although it it oftentimes their framework in explaining humanity doesn’t include the salvation part but you may find yeah modalities that do not go against your belief yeah I don’t know that that is I I don’t know if that’s being taught ⁓ that well I’m really not sure but I guess some of our listeners who may be in academic spaces would be able to talk to what the students are learning both in secular

Melissa Gendreau (29:42)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (29:56)
⁓ academic spaces as well as Christ-centered academic spaces, but it definitely gives people something to think about as they’re preparing, that’s for sure. ⁓ And so here’s the thing that I want to also go into and and kind of I guess ask about is

Melissa Gendreau (30:06)
Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (30:15)
What do you think the mindset has to be to not feel like offense or feel like you have to be the gatekeeper of the word? You know, to get to that place that you talked about as far as being, you know, ⁓ exploratory, asking questions, being curious. You know, what is that transition that of mindset that is even needed in order to get to a place where you’re not going to just correct your clients, but instead you’re you’re seeking more understanding?

Melissa Gendreau (30:43)
Mm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (30:45)
Understanding.

Melissa Gendreau (30:47)
Right. ⁓ I think the important thing for clinicians to, ⁓ the framework for them that I know helps me is, ⁓ I presenting with the fruit of the Spirit? Right. So that’s my ability to still be Christ-like, ⁓ regardless of whether I am speaking His name at all.

⁓ So, if I’m presenting in the therapy session with ⁓ kindness, with patience, ⁓ with joy, ⁓ if I am able to ensure I have self-control, ⁓ do I have appropriate gentleness with the client that I am working with? ⁓ while one of the fruit of the spirit is faithful, that doesn’t mean it has to come out of me. ⁓

I am praying to the Holy Spirit constantly in my head when I’m meeting with a therapy client going, give me the words. ⁓ What are the questions to be asking right now? So I’m constantly connected. ⁓ It just depends on who my client is of whether I can actually say that out loud.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (32:05)
really I like that point. Yeah. Because

It doesn’t always have to be explicitly said for you to still stay within your your framework that aligns with your convictions and your faith. And you can still be ethical and professional and compassionate, yeah, while doing it. Yeah, that’s that’s absolutely that’s good. So that even helps for clinicians who are either new to the field or seasoned but feeling called by the Lord to incorporate him into their everyday work, helps them to start to really.

Melissa Gendreau (32:21)
Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (32:38)
think through okay how do I do this what does this look like okay and how do I even especially for those topics that may come up in counseling that hold a lot of deep feelings for a lot of people okay

Melissa Gendreau (32:41)
Right. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (32:55)
What is something that you would give ⁓ as far as advice? What kind of advice would you give to Christian counselors who are who are navigating these tensions or who are just entering the fields and they they want to hold to their faith, but they also had secular frameworks that they were taught and that they continue to learn from? You know, what kind of advice would you give them?

Melissa Gendreau (33:18)
Sure. I think it’s learning how to hold multiple things at the same time, right? So we need to remember that as a therapist in our office, the ethics and laws of being a therapist has to come first. So I think it’s also for clinicians remembering what is the therapy model.

⁓ I mean, therapy is a medical model. And so I think for clinicians, it’s remembering what’s the difference maybe between ⁓ therapy and coaching. ⁓ And I think sometimes those lines can get blurred. ⁓ I think especially for Christian counseling, ⁓ because it depends on ⁓

what your private practice structure is. ⁓ So if a clinician accepts insurance, ⁓ you very much have to follow the medical model because you have to say that your therapy services are medical necessity ⁓ and that it is helping to treat a mental illness. ⁓

Those are strong parameters that as a clinician, you need to be able to adhere and abide by. Spiritual formation all by itself without there being other mental health diagnoses isn’t a medical model. ⁓ so it’s understanding what your framework is for your practice. And we get the ability to be able to set up our private practices

to some extent, as long as we’re still being ethical and legal. ⁓ But again, if we’re doing insurance, we have to be a little bit more careful about that or present it differently than if we’re doing ⁓ maybe out of pocket pay as a private practice ⁓ clinician. Even with that, then it’s still important to make sure that we are recognizing, ⁓ are you doing therapy or are you doing coaching? ⁓

And there can be some blurring of the lines with that a little bit, again, depending on what your structure is. ⁓

Camille McDaniel, LPC (35:52)
It it does it’s

very interesting. It does kind of go sometimes back and forth in therapy. Like, you know, really, you know, a lot of people today as well, we talk about the wounded well. ⁓ I that’s been a thing for like ever, but you know, but people are sometimes coming and there’s not a extremely severe mental health diagnosis, but there might be ⁓ the

Melissa Gendreau (36:06)
Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (36:17)
lack of well the adjustment disorders, right? You know, and so it’s you know just a challenge within their their social network or some type of dynamic, relationship dynamic or so. And so sometimes it it is interesting ⁓ that it’s not always just hardcore evidence, you know, well, an evidence-based model may be used, but it may not necessarily be necessary for what the person is experiencing. ⁓

Melissa Gendreau (36:26)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (36:46)
And

since you mentioned ⁓ mentioned coaching ⁓ a couple of times and you do do that as well, could you just briefly ⁓ tell us what is the difference so that people have like a clearer understanding of what is it that coaches offer versus what is it that maybe a licensed mental health professional might be offering so that you know when you’re moving into one area versus another.

Melissa Gendreau (37:14)
Right, ⁓ so really a therapy model and more from a therapist perspective is again looking at it through the lens of mental illness. So it’s more of medical model. So I will explain it more like ⁓ if we look at it from a physical perspective, right? So if someone is ⁓ hurt or had an injury, it makes sense that you would go to a physical therapist.

where the focus for them is rehabilitation. It is how to fix the wound that they experienced. ⁓ What are the exercises they give them? are the strengths? What are the stretches? are, right? it’s the focus of that process is to get them back to a place of health. So that is our therapy model. ⁓ For a coach,

⁓ Think same thing if it comes to sports, ⁓ where you are healthy, you’re just wanting to do whatever sport that you are in better. ⁓ You’re wanting to grow in it. You’re wanting to excel in it. ⁓ That’s going to be more the coaching model. So the coaching model is going to focus more on someone who is in a healthy place by and large, ⁓ and they’re wanting to focus on growth. ⁓

when we take out the medical component of it, it would be a person who wants coaching. There’s not a diagnosis ⁓ that’s associated. ⁓ They don’t warrant a diagnosis. Now it gets a little bit gray because we do have those adjustment disorders. ⁓ And I think we can be soft with those adjustment disorders. ⁓

So it’s really kind of navigating the difference between where’s the starting point of your client. ⁓ From the therapy model, the starting point is actually illness. And from a coaching model, the starting point is health, just wanting better growth. ⁓ Again, there can be ⁓ maybe more gray areas and flexibilities with that.

if a person is in private practice and they don’t take insurance. ⁓ But if you are in private practice and take insurance, again, ethically, we have to be able to acknowledge medical necessity. So once you have a client who is getting more to the growth phase, that’s when we really need to start looking at ethically, ⁓ are we transitioning them out?

Camille McDaniel, LPC (40:05)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that part, I know that part can be difficult for the client as well as the mental health professional, but that’s a ⁓

Thank you for explaining that. ⁓ that’s one of the clearer explanations actually, ⁓ that when you’re talking about coaching, you’re starting from a p place of health overall, but the person is wanting to accomplish something. I think about like, you know, like performance, or maybe they are wanting to maybe do better with ⁓ self advocacy in a corporate arena or some other some other type of thing where overall things are going well versus counseling, you know, being more clinical, like you said, especially if you’re

Melissa Gendreau (40:32)
Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (40:42)
dealing

with insurance, then there is a there is a stated, there is a known ⁓ illness that is present and you’re having to work on healing from that. Thank you for sharing that.

Melissa Gendreau (40:49)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (40:56)
this is actually this has given us a very good framework, actually a very good into to jump off of and and so please tell us like where we can find you. We mentioned at the beginning of the session, like the podcast that you have currently. And then, you know, tell us where else we can find you ⁓ and you know and and what you’re doing.

Melissa Gendreau (41:00)
hehe

Yeah, thank you. So I’ve been a therapist for 16 years. And in the last year, ⁓ God’s really prompted me to expand. And what expand means is to get to go from ⁓ focusing on healing, which is incredibly important in what we focus on when it comes to therapy. ⁓ But really, as put it on my heart, that healing’s

healing doesn’t have to be the finish line and it’s not actually meant to be the finish line. ⁓ It’s the, and then what? ⁓ And so it’s getting to go into the next part of the growth part. ⁓ And so I’m so excited that I am transitioning more into then helping people become the person that God created them to be ⁓ so that it gets to be the focus on the growth.

⁓ that it is the next steps on their path. ⁓ My new company’s name is Forward Path. ⁓ That’s what the podcast is. It’s Forward Path with Melissa, Life and Marriage, God’s Way. You can find the podcast anywhere that you listen or watch podcasts. ⁓ If you go to my website, which is just my name, so melissajendrow.com, ⁓ I have ⁓ access to the podcast.

But then I’ve also created six different courses ⁓ and three of them are marriage specific. ⁓ Two of them are more individual focused and then there’s one for parenting. And then I have access to speaking. ⁓ So if a person is looking for any speaking opportunities, ⁓ I have a page there so you can see what are the topics that I focus on. ⁓

I also have a private community and that is the opportunity to bridge the gap between the podcast episodes every week and really getting to delve into those topics and talk with people live about what the topic is, how do we break it down, ⁓ and then utilize ⁓ quarterly some of my group coaching workshops. ⁓ So that’s where there can be a lot of growth. ⁓

again, focusing more from the coaching standpoint. I do one-on-one coaching for individuals and marriage. ⁓ Those are a little bit more ⁓ intense, but then I don’t offer quite as many of them because they are intense and then timing of stuff. ⁓ I do have different free resources people can take a peek at ⁓ and a few different devotionals. So there’s kind of quite the gamut that a person can take a peek at.

and check out. yes, and it is, again, it’s exciting to be able to go from the healing component to the growing component. And ⁓ really the recognition is that everyone has their own starting point, right? We all have our own forward path, which means all of our paths are just different.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (44:12)
Thank you everyone.

Melissa Gendreau (44:37)
⁓ Not right, not wrong, not better than anyone else’s, just simply our own. ⁓ And that’s meant to be really exciting. But for some people, it is starting at healing and we all have areas of healing. ⁓ But then it’s the excitement of, then what next? ⁓ so I think we all have, as therapists and clinicians, we all have those certain clients that really

⁓ therapy is not about us ⁓ at all, ⁓ but we do all have those certain clients that really do just energize us and excite us. ⁓ And I think each clinician, there’s certain areas or certain topics that that does that with. And ⁓ I can look back at the time I’ve been a therapist and the clients that are excited to grow more. And you can see just that

Camille McDaniel, LPC (45:11)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa Gendreau (45:34)
that passion and that motivation for them. Those have always been the clients that have excited me most. And so this really feels like ⁓ a gift that God is allowing me to then step into this next new role too.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (45:49)
Nice. Well, we are excited for you in this new role. Absolutely. And it sounds like you really have put a lot into it with all of the things that you have to support anyone who comes your way.

Melissa Gendreau (45:54)
Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Camille McDaniel, LPC (46:01)
from

collectively as a community to one on one. It sounds wonderful. And we’ll make sure to put that on the website so that anybody who is looking into what Melissa has to offer, whether one on one, whether parenting, whether marriage and family and moving and moving forward in those areas, you will be able to have a positive, healthy, ⁓ Christ centered connec connection to to consider as you as you move forward. I did not do that part on purpose.

Melissa Gendreau (46:30)
you

Camille McDaniel, LPC (46:31)
just actually came out. So you you chose an appropriate name. So thank you again, Melissa. It was wonderful talking to you for this episode. ⁓ and we look forward to whatever you are creating in the future.

Melissa Gendreau (46:46)
Thank you again so much for having me.